SERIAL KILLER: Israel Keyes

[00:00] Hi, Crime Junkies. It's Britt, and I have big news. One of my favorite seasonal shows, CounterClock, is back with a brand new season, and it is wild. Host Delia D'Ambra is digging into the 2008 Lane Bryant murders. I mean, this isn't just a recap. It is a reinvestigation. She's talking to law enforcement, people from the community, even sources who have never spoken publicly until now. And you know I love a show that asks all the questions. Listen to CounterClock Season 8 now, wherever you get your podcasts. [00:30] Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And last episode, I told you about Suzanne Lyle, a 19-year-old college student in New York who literally just vanished into thin air after getting off of a bus on her college campus. Since 1998, there have been no credible sightings of her, no physical evidence. It truly is one of the strangest missing person cases. There were suspects we talked about in the last episode, [01:00] to get fully into because he needed a full episode. A serial killer whose MO was to abduct complete strangers and make them vanish, leaving absolutely no trace behind. A serial killer who was in New York at the time of Suzanne's disappearance. A man who was in New York at [01:20] named Israel Keys. [01:22] Music.

[01:54] Israel Keyes was a name virtually unknown to the police or the public before 2012. He wasn't on anyone's radar. Police didn't even know they should be looking for a serial killer. But all of that was about to change. In the late evening of February 1st, 2012, a young man in Anchorage, Alaska, went to pick up his girlfriend, Samantha, from work. [02:23] holds like a single employee along with coffee and they sell other like small items, knickknacks, [02:29] Yeah, okay. Well, when he arrived, he's confused. Like the Stan's interior lights were turned off. He didn't see Samantha. She's nowhere in sight. So he wonders, like, did he get it wrong? Was someone else picking her up? And he has this text from Samantha on his phone that doesn't make any sense. It says, hey, I'm spending a couple of days with friends. Let my dad know. Now, they've been dating for nine and a half months. He knew Samantha pretty well, and this was not like her. [02:59] She immediately goes to Samantha's dad, who reports Samantha missing that very night. The police contact the owner of the coffee stand to see if he knew anything, and he says, [03:11] I wasn't there, but we do have surveillance video. And cops are like, bingo, this is going to tell us everything we need to know. So they get the video footage and what they see is chilling. And I'm going to put this video on our website for anyone who wants to watch the full thing and follow along with us. But as you're watching around the one minute and 42 second mark, you see Samantha getting coffee for a customer, a customer who's like walked up to her window.

[03:41] is normal. She hands the cup to him and then she turns around to look at something, almost like someone pointed to something behind her. And then when she turns back to the counter, she's clearly startles, jumps backwards and raises her hands into the air. [03:58] Yeah, then... [03:59] With her hands in the air, she turns off the light switch behind her, walks to the other end of the little stand, and turns off the other light switch. The only way you can still see what's going on is because of the light beaming in from the outside. It looks like Samantha moves back and forth in the stand once, and then just stands in front of the window, staring at whoever is on the other side. [04:29] Samantha taking cash from the register and then handing it over. And then she gets on the floor after that and just kind of stays there for a while. There's not a ton happening in the video and I have no idea what's really going on or what kind of interaction is like going on between her and this guy. But then... [04:47] The man who's on the other side, a man in a ski mask, crawls through the window into the stand with Samantha. Yep. And they're like together. You can't really see what they're doing because all the lights are off. But it doesn't take long before he actually... [05:06] removes her from the stand, like through the door, and they can be seen on the outside video for a brief moment before they disappear off screen. And her dad and her boyfriend have no idea what to think about this. Was this somebody she knew? Was it a customer? Was it a total stranger? The FBI is brought in to assist and they're combing through Samantha's social media looking for links

[05:36] has something against her and time for the family is passing at an excruciatingly slow pace. Two and a half weeks go by before there's a break in the case. Samantha's boyfriend gets a text from Samantha's phone. And this is again, two and a half weeks later, all the text says, [05:58] is Connor Park, [06:00] Sign under pick of Albert G. [06:03] Ain't she purdy? Now this was the first communication they had gotten from whoever had taken Samantha. And they didn't know what they were going to find when they went to Connor Park. Would it be another note? Would it actually be Samantha? Or maybe it would be nothing. But they had to go see. Pinned to a bulletin board at this park was a Ziploc bag. [06:33] paper. So whoever had her in the ransom note was asking that $30,000 be deposited into Samantha's bank account. The FBI and the family quickly pulled together the money and they worked out a deal with the bank that as soon as someone tried to withdraw any money, they would be immediately notified. I mean, that seems like a weird way to track a ransom, right? Like it'd be very easy to just [07:03] Yeah, I agree. And you'd think that the first time that the card would get used, police would be on this guy. But even with this like immediate notification, they're still a step behind. A few days go by. They don't hear anything from her abductor. And there are no hits on her account until all of a sudden there's these ATM withdrawals that start popping up around Ingridge, Alaska. Three of them, each taking out the daily limit of $500.

[07:33] the pin number that's used is a perfect hit. [07:38] I say they don't catch him because the problem is, even though they're getting notified immediately, it still takes them a few minutes to dispatch somebody to the ATM. And by the time they get there, this guy is long gone. So... [07:52] FBI, police, everyone's trying to make a plan. Maybe they position people all around the city, around ATMs, but you can't hit all of them. And as they're plotting and planning what to do, [08:04] Boom. There's another transaction, but not in Anchorage, not even anywhere in Alaska. All of a sudden, March 7th, Samantha's card is used in Wilcox, Arizona, then Lordsburg, New Mexico. And by March 10th, whoever has her card is in Humboldt, Texas, then Shepard, Texas. Like they're making a very clear path. They went south and then they're making their way east across the United States. Yeah. [08:34] they pull video from all these transactions in the Southwest. And of course, the person on video was always wearing a mask. So they weren't able to identify him. But they did notice that in all of these videos, there's also a white Ford Focus car. So they put an APB out in Texas. And God bless the highway patrolman who showed up to work that day because he paid attention to the APB.

[09:04] His Root [09:05] and he sees a white Ford Focus. [09:07] And he's like, huh. [09:09] That's exactly the type of car they're looking for. I'm going to stick with this guy and see if he does anything dumb. Sure enough, the guy driving makes a traffic infraction, so he's able to pull him over. And when he asks him for his license and registration, he gets what I can only assume is full body chills when the driver of the car hands him an Alaska driver's license. And the name on the card is Israel Keys. [09:39] this was the [09:41] guy. He does a search of the vehicle and finds all the proof he needs to link him to Samantha's abduction. He has clothing exactly like the one of the man seen on the ATM videos, a gun, and a gun [09:53] And to top it all off, he has Samantha's debit card and cell phone in his possession. [10:01] What? Yeah, however... [10:03] There's no Samantha. I mean... [10:08] Honestly, I kind of assume that... [10:10] she would still be with him? Is that... [10:13] naive of me. No, I think a lot of people thought that because, I mean, again, he's still like using her debit card. Nobody knows where she is. He left Alaska, but it's not like he let her go or she showed up anywhere, but only he knew where she was. Now they had enough to hold him just on fraud charges alone for using her ATM card and withdrawing money using her PIN. So police and

[10:43] is that everything they thought they knew about her abduction was totally wrong. [10:51] First of all, the guy they had in front of them, Israel Keys, isn't the scary menacing man they expected to see. Like Britt, how many times have you seen a mugshot or even like a candid picture of someone who we like find out they're a monster and you look at these old photos? [11:09] He's cute? You're like, well, not even he's cute, but you look at it and you're like, well, of course you're a monster. You can see it in some people. And I think... [11:17] I think that's what they were expecting. But this guy, again, I'm going to send you a picture. Nobody would look at this guy and think he is abducting or murdering women. And like I said, like, there are times where you're just like, oh, like, that's totally normal guy. [11:35] You see him in like a good picture on Tinder like this. - Yeah. - And you're like, okay, I'm into it. - Yeah, this guy's like, he's literally like, this picture I sent you, he's like at a barbecue or something. He's like wearing a lay around his neck. - Lay on. - Yeah. - He's like, [11:47] chilling. He's, he's [11:48] He's any other guy at any barbecue you go to in the summer. Well, what they learn from him is that he is not every other guy. [12:00] has a persona of every other guy that he's practiced. And he told investigators many times, no one in my life really knows me. No one would ever suspect me. [12:13] I can be both people, a killer and a normal neighbor and family man. And that's what he was. He had a long-term girlfriend that he lived with and a young daughter in Alaska, both who had no idea about Israel's real identity. When Israel eventually decided to cooperate with police, he tells them they shouldn't expect Samantha to come home. She's already dead. And in fact, she's been dead almost the entire time he's had her.

[12:43] least is that when he decided he was going to kill someone it didn't really matter who he hadn't known samantha or stalked her or even stalked that specific coffee stand he just decided one day that a coffee stand would make a good abduction place so he drove by a couple of them prior to that february first night and when he found out that common grounds was open the latest [13:07] That's how he chose his target, and it really had nothing to do with Sam herself. He said that after he ordered his coffee and she turned around to give it to him, he pulled a gun on her and forced himself inside. What was hard to see in the dark in that video footage was that he had tied her hands with zip ties, and when he took her out of the coffee stand, he had planned to take her away in her own car, not realizing that she didn't have one and her boyfriend was going to pick her up. [13:37] on video was that after they walked off screen, Samantha had actually tried to run. She broke free for a short minute and called for help. [13:48] But Israel Keyes was too quick and he tackled her to the ground, then shoved the gun into her side and walked her to his white truck and put her in and drove away without anything. [13:59] anyone seeing or hearing a thing. And this is despite like all of this went down between like an IHOP and something else. Not a single person was paying attention. [14:10] Israel kept Samantha calm by telling her, listen, I'm only abducting you for ransom money. And she kept saying, like, my family doesn't have anything. And he's like, don't worry, like the community will come up for it. I just want money. And if you cooperate, you'll be fine. He says that she believed him and after that didn't put up a fight. But that was never his plan.

[14:30] Sure, he was definitely going to try to exploit her family and get money out of them, but he didn't even plan to keep her alive long enough for that to happen. There was a problem in his plan, though. [14:42] He did want money from her family, but in order to do that, he needed her cell phone to send that message to her boyfriend. And he needed her ATM debit card, both of which she didn't have on her. She had left her cell phone in the coffee stand that night. So he actually drove back, risking being seen, risking being caught, but still no one spotted him. And as for the debit card, like this was even trickier. [15:12] Oh my god. [15:14] He does not go get that, does he? You know he does. He had it with him when he left Alaska. He forced her to give him her PIN number and her address. And so he... [15:27] takes her to his house and ties her up in the shed in the front of his house, despite the freezing temperatures in Alaska. And he actually drives to her house where her boyfriend's truck is and takes the card out of his truck. And while he's doing it, he has an interaction that almost ruins his plan completely. [15:51] I recently learned that after working out, performance and recovery come down to what's happening in your blood. Now, I pay a lot more attention to what's happening inside my body. And here's what most people overlook. Training gives your body the stimulus, but your internal environment determines what happens next. Thankfully, function can help you see exactly what's going on under the hood. Things like your glucose, whether your body is burning clean or running on fumes. Your omega-6 to omega-3 ratio, which one is winning the inflammation battle. Your DHEAS, one of the building blocks your body uses to make testosterone.

[16:21] one of the first things to quietly decline. When these markers are off, you can do everything right and still feel like you're fighting against yourself. Check in on your health. Function provides over 160 labs for $1 per day and member pricing on MRI and CT scans. Join at functionhealth.com slash crimejunkie or use gift code crimejunkie25 for a $25 credit toward your membership. [16:42] While he's getting the card out of the truck, he gets caught by Samantha's boyfriend. Her boyfriend starts yelling at him and actually runs back in the house to get help. But by the time he comes out, Israel Keyes is gone. Oh my God, he was so close. Yeah, and at this point, she was still alive. And I can't help but think how differently things would be if he had been apprehended right then. [17:10] But before going back to Samantha, he tested that PIN number to make sure it worked, to make sure he didn't need more information from her. [17:19] And it did. It worked. He had everything he needed. [17:24] and he was done with her. When he got home, he sexually assaulted Samantha and killed her in his shed. With, mind you, his girlfriend and his daughter right in the house behind it. When she was dead, he just turned it off. He left the shed, went back into the house to his girlfriend, to his daughter, and started packing for a cruise. Like, everything was fine.

[17:51] For two weeks while he was gone, Samantha's body sat in the shed, frozen. And it's when he got back that he put together the ransom note and the picture. [18:04] Wait... [18:04] she was alive there. How does that timeline mesh up? The one the FBI and the family saw... [18:12] that wasn't Samantha alive. Israel had used a needle and thread to sew her eyes open and held that newspaper next to her. And again, because it was so cold, she didn't show any kind of signs of decomposition. So if you go back and look at that picture... Yeah, I'm opening it up again right now. That isn't a picture of... [18:34] Samantha alive. That's a picture of Samantha two weeks after she'd been murdered. Oh my god, that... [18:41] this so much creepier. I'm sorry, guys. I have such full-body chills over this. Are you kidding me? She was dead in this picture? Yeah. So, I mean, it was something completely tragic for her boyfriend and her father to realize. And... [19:01] What they end up learning is that after the ransom note was placed in the park, he didn't have even a need for her body anymore. And so he dismembered her, drove her out to a lake. And now in Alaska, I guess it's not uncommon to build a little shelter around yourself while you're ice fishing. So...

[19:21] That's exactly what he did. He went out into a lake, built this shelter around him so he could be totally concealed to dispose of a body and not raise anything. [19:31] any suspicions. Police were able to recover Samantha's body exactly where Israel said she would be. And piece by piece, they brought her up from the cold, dark water and took her home to her family to be laid to rest. Now, this was the most tragic of ends for Samantha's family. Police and FBI found it so hard to believe that this was his first crime. And Israel was the first to admit [19:59] It wasn't. Samantha was just the latest victim in a lifelong hunt of a serial killer. [20:07] Now at this point, Israel knows that he's caught [20:10] But he cannot live caged up like that. So he makes a deal with police. I'll tell you everything. But I want assurances that I will be executed within a year. I don't want to live in prison. I don't want my story to be sensationalized. [20:27] And here is Israel explaining it himself. [20:30] If you want to continue to cooperate, I'm having some issues as far as [20:44] somewhat of an unrealistic expectation on my part, but I was thinking there might be a way to [20:50] or all this information.

[20:52] to do. [20:55] and to [20:58] some way ensure somehow ensure that uh we could work out some sort of agreement you know i give you all the answers on these [21:06] Jesus is the... [21:09] - Thank you. [21:10] families, the exposure, and finding the needs [21:15] the possible and [21:19] And in return for that, you know, [21:22] I don't plan on being around a whole lot longer, but [21:26] really big concern to me is [21:29] you know, my kid's gonna be around, I don't want her to like, type my name on the computer and have it pop up, like, you know, [21:38] You know, I already know stuff's gonna come out. [21:40] I don't laugh, but [21:45] I just-- [21:47] trying to minimize that at this point, I guess. [21:49] what I was hoping to do and I [21:52] Apparently, it's going to be really difficult. [21:55] Uh... [21:55] - Do you have that assurance? [21:57] So, [21:58] I'm trying to do it. [22:00] figure out a way we can [22:01] So, [22:02] do that [22:06] Wait, so he's worried about his daughter hearing about what he's done, but like, he chopped up someone else's daughter, right? It's so hard for me to get how these killers can separate themselves from that.

[22:23] Yeah, yeah, like I mean he's so worried about protecting his daughter just from like the knowledge of something. Yet he when he talks about these murders or talks about murdering Samantha like zero emotion zero remorse. I mean he even said to investigators he doesn't feel anything for them. So it's very hard for me to understand that. So they obviously have him on Samantha's murder, but it takes him a long time to start talking about anything else. There are. [22:49] at least five interview tapes made public that are each like an hour or two long. And they're going to be posted on the website, but they're the most painful things to go through because so much of it is just like back and forth with him, um, [23:04] where he's basically like, you know, there are so many cases that I can close, but I need assurances that... [23:10] you're not going to release anything and you're just going to put me to death and I don't have to live in here. And, [23:15] But like throughout all of this, like him going back and forth and him just being like an awful person, slowly sprinkled throughout this nonchalant chit chat are hints of other murders, like a lake in Washington that he spent a lot of time at, wink, wink, a property that he had in New York. And he goes as far as to tell police, you will only know if I killed people. [23:43] if I tell you I killed them. All of my victims are just missing persons and you would never think to connect me to them.

[23:54] The FBI had spent the last six months between when these interviews happened and when he was arrested, trying to piece together his life and his movements. Israel Keyes traveled a lot, always under his real name. And he was not only all over the US, but he traveled internationally as well. And here's what they learn. [24:16] He didn't kill every single time he took a trip. He was a meticulous planner. And sometimes he would make a trip just to prepare. Throughout all of the country, he hid these buckets underground. And inside would basically be a kill set, a weapon of some kind, usually like a gun, maybe a knife. [24:46] he came. All of his victims were victims of opportunity. Like Samantha, he never knew them, didn't stalk them, just picked a time and a location he thought was ideal and he would strike. Sometimes that was in the woods where he would hide until someone came across his path. Sometimes it would just be a house where, listen, there's no dog and I can sneak in a window, [25:16] who would cross his path, male, female, no regard for age or race. His MO was to have no MO.

[25:25] Ash, we've covered a lot of very depraved people, but... [25:31] This might be the most terrifying serial killer I have ever heard of. I mean, he is. He was operating everywhere. No one was safe and there was no rhyme or reason. Like, how can you keep yourself safe from someone if you don't know how they operate? Right. [25:48] This may be too much, but did he just kill everyone who came across his path? Or did he sexually assault them too? Because we know he did that with Samantha. So this is kind of the interesting part about him, I think. You're on to something because he did sexually assault all of his victims, and it didn't matter who to him. But talking about his sexual acts, sex with men, necrophilia, [26:18] Like he wouldn't talk about it at all. And it was the idea of these details coming out to the public that made him not want to talk to investigators about his other crimes. [26:30] Right. Okay. Well, my concern is, like I said from the beginning, there are certain aspects [26:38] of the things that I've done in Iowa. [26:40] Okay. [26:41] for never leaving a war. [26:43] Um, [26:45] and [26:49] - From what I've been, [26:51] appearing lately. [26:53] at [26:53] something in this area that we've definitely hearing

[26:57] They want to review all of the evidence. [27:00] The floor is making a statement. [27:01] of it [27:06] and [27:07] Obviously [27:08] in [27:09] Everything we've discussed there's a lot of that. I mean if they're going to review all the evidence and that's [27:15] primarily going to be weed years. [27:17] It's energy. [27:18] I agree. [27:19] in which [27:20] that information is going to be [27:22] in there [27:23] evidence. [27:24] Mm-hmm. [27:26] And so if it's a public area, all that's going to become public. And that's exactly what I didn't want from the beginning. [27:34] You know, I-- [27:36] Um... [27:38] certain aspects of this that, yeah, no way around it, but, you know, [27:44] As far as [27:45] . [27:45] different things that were done with the bodies and [27:49] the sexual assault stuff, that type of stuff, I just don't, I don't see, you know, if that has to be part of hearing, then [28:01] would we got to figure out something different [28:05] I love you. [28:07] What does he mean he'll figure out something different? Like, who else is he going to talk to? I don't think he means he's going to talk to somebody else. I think... [28:16] He means he's going to find... [28:18] a different ending to his story. But you'll see as we get further into this. So authorities try to reassure him, listen, we don't need the dirty details of what you did to each victim or with each victim. We are just trying to bring closure to families. We just want to know, like you tell us, where did you abduct them? Where did you kill them? And where can we find their remains now? They pushed and they probed and they finally get him talking

[28:48] case. [28:52] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. For some, summer is their favorite season. Travel picks up, kids are out of school, and adventure is in the focus. For others, juggling it all can lead to overwhelm and counting down the minutes until the kids are back in school. And many worry that they're wasting the days of sunshine. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, to support can make all the difference. BetterHelp makes it easy to get started with quality, fully licensed therapists in the U.S. who follow a strict code of conduct. [29:22] million people globally. Their therapist match commitment does the initial matching work so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences and if you aren't happy with your match you can switch to a different therapist at any time. It works. BetterHelp has an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash crimejunkie. That's betterhelp.com [29:53] Israel Keys tells the FBI, I can close a double missing person case for you out of Vermont. The case was one that had baffled local police for the last year. A husband and wife had just vanished from their home. Their names were Bill and Lorraine. And one day in June, Lorraine... [30:13] just didn't come into work. And she actually worked with her sister-in-law. And her sister-in-law found this to be super strange. Lorraine was always super reliable. So she decides to call her brother to make sure everything's okay. But when she calls his work, she finds out that he didn't show up to his job either that day. And this was all too weird for her. So she decides to drive over to their house. And at first, everything seems okay. Like, all's quiet. The front door is locked. The car is gone.

[30:43] here. [30:44] But there's something concerning. Just one broken window on the garage. [30:50] Police are called out to investigate, but there's no evidence [30:55] of anything and no real motive. Like, Bill and Lorraine had no enemies. They weren't into anything crazy. Someone just... [31:03] took them from their home in the middle of the night for seemingly no reason whatsoever. Though police tried to find resolution for the family, the case went cold. [31:14] almost right away until they got a call from the FBI saying that a man in Alaska who had never met Bill and Lorraine was confessing to their murder. [31:27] We've seen a lot of people confess to a lot of crazy crimes. Is there any way to prove that this one is actually legit? Well, and I think police have the same thought. Like, they have to verify confessions. You can't just, like, put somebody in jail for saying they did it. And Israel is like... [31:44] No problem. Just like Samantha, I'll lead you to where the bodies are. So he tells them about an old abandoned barn just a few miles away from Bill and Lorraine's house. He said that that's where he took them that night. And police relay this information for local authorities who rushed to the scene only to find that the barn had been demolished. And the remains, which are by now just bones, were taken away with it.

[32:14] part about this? I feel like I never do, but... [32:18] Lean on me, I guess. So apparently when the demo crew was there taking this place down, they said it smelled horribly of decomposition. But instead of calling police or doing literally anything about it, they were like, meh, let's just take this sucker down. And they cleared everything away. Wait, what? [32:39] They were just like, [32:41] Totally normal, smells like something died here. [32:43] and just continued on with their job per usual? Yeah. I mean, just smelled awful. And I don't know if they thought maybe it was a dead animal or something, but they literally just tore everything down, put all of the rubble into a bin, took it to a landfill, and they have not been able to find their remains since. [33:00] Now this story about the decomp smell along with the other details that Israel gave the FBI made them believe his story. And Israel told police that he had buried one of his kill buckets just two miles from their house, a full two years before the murders. So when I told you earlier that he was a planner, I said, [33:21] Like no lie. And again, he didn't like stalk them out. He just like picked a spot across the United States and put a bucket in the ground. Yeah. And came back two years later. So he killed them for no reason. A couple in their own home. So police started to wonder. [33:39] How many cases could potentially be closed with Israel's confessions? How many deaths would be attributed to this man would always said and done? In his interviews, he dropped hints about eight other murders. The FBI felt like they could really be close to answers for so many families and more than just eight.

[34:09] the United States... [34:10] has ever known. However, as close as they were to answers, [34:15] They would never actually get them because in December of 2012, all hopes of answers were dashed when Israel was found dead in his prison cell. He had taken his own life and left behind a four-page note that was... [34:34] It didn't leave any answers at all. And honestly, it was just like this horrible, chilling tribute to murder. And I'm not going to waste everyone's time reading the whole thing. He doesn't deserve it. But I'll just read you a sentence of this. It was almost a poem, so you can get a feel for his particular brand of crazy. [34:54] And this is what he wrote. [34:57] I looked into your eyes. They were so dark, warm, and trusting, as though you had not a worry or care. The more guile-ness the game, the better potential to fill up those pools with your fear. [35:10] Your face framed in dark curls like a portrait, the sun shone through highlights of red. [35:16] "'What color, I wonder, and how straight it will turn, "'plastered back with the sweat of your blood.'" [35:24] Uh, that's super creepy. Same. Like, I mean, again, the guy's just... [35:31] awful and took all [35:32] Everything with him, all of the answers. And after his death, there's almost nothing to go off of. He was cocky, but he was right. Some of the victims they're looking for probably aren't even listed as homicides. They're all still missing people. And he didn't keep trophies. He didn't have a type. The only way they could even begin to narrow down his possible list of victims was by tracing his travel records.

[36:02] and [36:03] And it got compiled online. It starts in 1997. I'm going to put this whole thing on our website. And I promise you, you will go into a black hole of comparing his travel with missing person cases. It's a black hole I've been in for the last couple of days. But maybe that's what needs to happen. Like maybe we need more people like who have an intimate knowledge of their community and who's missing and these small cases because they're not going to be a black hole. [36:30] Police have always reported that they're definitely looking at possible connections all over the United States and what I've seen reported over and over and over again again, I think they believe he's responsible for numerous cases, but they keep pointing out specific cities Albany, New York, Fort Wayne, Indiana, Mobile, Alabama, Dallas, Texas, Los Angeles, California, San Francisco, California and Seattle, Washington. [36:56] I mean, again, when you're trying to compare his travel records with the people in those states, I don't know if police have specific people in mind, but those are the cities that keep coming up over and over and over. [37:08] I also know that they knew of like at least five states that he had buried those kill bucket things in and they were only able to recover two of them. So let's put aside the fact that one of the places that keeps getting brought up is Fort Wayne, Indiana, because I could spiral on that for days. I mean, you say that as if I'm not already spiraling. Yeah, but let's talk about how one of the places he was known to have been in March of 1998 was...

[37:36] was Albany, New York. And this is the state that keeps coming up over and over and over again. And that's exactly where Suzanne Lyle went missing. [37:45] She vanished without a trace. And just like in Sam's case, maybe he forced Suzanne to give him her PIN number and he used that to withdraw money. [37:58] Well, if you remember from the last episode, Susie only had like $120 in her account. So maybe he didn't want to overdraw it or maybe it wasn't about the money at all. You know, like if it is him. [38:13] Maybe he's just using that transaction as a way to make people think she's still alive. Like in 2012, he used Sam's cell phone to help buy him time and try and make people believe that she went away on her own. Susie didn't have a cell phone in 1998. Maybe this was his way by getting her pen and taking out a small amount of money to make people think that like, oh, Susie's... [38:37] just fine. [38:39] None of his victims were ever found, like I said, unless he led police to them. And he had no connection to anyone. So Susie really could have been at the wrong place at the wrong time and a victim of a true monster. [38:58] So like knowing what you know about him now, Brett, like what do you think in Susie's case? I hadn't even considered that. Do you think it's possible? I mean, absolutely. And I don't think we'll ever know the true number of victims this man had. But he did give some clues. Like I said, I mean, he was hinting about eight cases. But there are a couple where he kind of gave a significant amount of information, at least for him.

[39:28] if it was ever found. And he said, "This is the only body other than Samantha's that's ever been recovered." And he said his plan worked and that... [39:37] When the body was found, police did rule it an accident, and now it's not even listed as a homicide. But he knows what. [39:45] that he killed that person. And then he also made mention of a woman who he said had pale skin, had an older car and a wealthy grandmother, but he didn't give any more information than that either. But that's all we know about him, about his victims and his, [40:03] You know, he said he used to love hunting for these people in parks and campgrounds and trailheads, cemeteries, boating areas, stuff like that. And it makes me think about some of the creepy cases I've heard about with people just going missing in the woods or national parks. Everyone assumes that when no part of them turns up that they were eaten by animals. [40:25] But maybe they just came across a different kind of animal. I mean... [40:29] What I can't get over is why did he change his M.O.? Like, what do you mean? I think part of his thing was that he had no M.O.? [40:37] I guess by MO, I mean his MO of staying super under the radar about his actions. Like, [40:44] asking for $30,000? [40:47] or even asking for a ransom in general, in Sam's case. [40:51] And then using her card [40:53] It's literally putting a tracker on yourself, right? Yeah, which is like different than anything else because I mean you're right in the past like he

[41:00] never asked for money, never would have connected himself to the victim. I think he just got cocky. Like, police say that he has been killing since at least 2001. And there's a good chance it was even before that, especially if we're considering Suzanne as a possible victim. That's 1998. So, [41:18] This is a minimum. [41:20] Of 11 years that he's gone with not only him not even being looked at as a suspect in anything, but police not even knowing any of his victims are deceased. Like, he probably thought he could get away with anything. [41:34] Anything at that point. And I'm sorry. I can't help but think that [41:40] How close have I been to being kidnapped, being taken, or even just interacting with a serial killer at this level? It's so, so terrifying to think about. Oh my God. I literally, this was part of my thing because the next line that I was going to say, he's so terrifying. [42:00] wondering not only who his victims are, because not necessarily is everyone related to Israel Keyes, but how many other Israel Keyes are out there? Because just like you said, all of these episodes have disappeared or all the cases we've done. I think about like the Maura Murray and the Leah Roberts. And I wonder if they just came across someone like Keyes, someone who's operating

[42:30] they want to be. [42:31] Like there are so many people who study serial killers. We have our behavioral analysis units and our armchair experts, but we can only study the people that we know about. There is this whole other type of killer out there that is smarter and better and knows how to get away with murder. And so, [42:54] The only like... [42:56] I think like shining light in all of this is that... [43:01] As tragic and as senseless as Samantha's death was, there was at least something that came out of it. She's the reason that this monster was stopped. And I wonder how many lives were saved because he was caught after her. I mean, he was a young man in 2012. And I'm sure if he wouldn't have gotten caught for this, he would have kept going for years. [43:27] if you guys want to see those five interview tapes if you want to see the pictures we talked about in this case go to our website under episodes we have our blog post that's crimejunkiepodcast.com [43:57] crimejunkiepod on Twitter. And we'll be back next week with a brand new episode.

[44:28] Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? [44:36] Okay, Crime Junkies, you know I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre, it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that? It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now, [44:57] listening for years. [44:58] I think you'll love it too. [45:00] Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.