MURDERED: The Lundys Part 1

[00:00] Hi, Crime Junkies, it's Britt, and I have big news. One of my favorite seasonal shows, CounterClock, is back with a brand new season, and it is wild. Host Delia D'Ambra is digging into the 2008 Lane Bryant murders. I mean, this isn't just a recap. It is a reinvestigation. She's talking to law enforcement, people from the community, even sources who have never spoken publicly until now. And you know I love a show that asks all the questions. Listen to CounterClock Season 8 now, wherever you get your podcasts. [00:31] Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. [00:36] Did you guys all say, and I'm Brit with me? Oh my God, have you seen that all over the internet too? All over Twitter. I love it so much. Yeah, apparently it's like a whole thing where everyone's like, says it along with you, which I didn't even realize on this end of things. And I love it so much. It's my favorite thing. I think it's what I love about this show and what I wanted it to be when we started it, right? That like, no matter who you are, Amy, Michael, Nina, whatever. We're all Brits. [01:06] Brit. And I think it's amazing. I love our little crime junkie nation. And our nation is getting really, really big. Our nation is global. And we actually have a global case today outside of the U.S. Because today, I want to tell you about a story that on the surface seems to have all the elements of an open and shut case. When a woman and her young daughter are found brutally murdered

[01:36] more than anyone else in the world. But even after police uncover a steady trail of sex, money, and lies, questions remain. And to this day, some feel that they have never been properly answered. This is the story of Christine and Amber Lundy. [01:58] Music. [02:28] On the morning of August 30th, 2000, in Palmerston North, which is on New Zealand's North Island, a man named Glenn Wegeri is getting ready to go over to his older sister Christine Lundy's house. Glenn is self-employed with his own trucking business, and he's actually going over to Christine's house to pick up these tax papers that she's been helping him with. You see, Christine is actually in business herself. Her and her husband, Mark, sell kitchen sinks and benches and stuff. [02:58] She keeps the book for like this whole operation. So she's like the perfect person for Glenn to turn to about financial stuff. Oh, totally. My sister runs the books for my family. And I always go to her for like tax questions. Help me, please. It's like that from Friday. She's like, help me. I'm poor. Literally.

[03:18] So Glenn calls over to the house to make sure that she's still okay with him coming over like they planned. But when Christine doesn't pick up the phone, he decides to just kind of head over anyways. Like he lives close by. She knows he's going to be there. Maybe she's just like busy or doing something. And he gets there sometime around 9 a.m. Now, Glenn doesn't use the front door. Instead, he goes around to the back like he usually does. And again, this is totally like I thought about your house, too. [03:48] life. Yeah. Yeah. No one does. Everyone goes to the back. Totally normal. So this back door actually goes directly through the conservatory, which for like a brief second, my American brain was like, what is a conservatory? Yeah. But then my baby crime junkie memories came flooding back and I was like, Mr. Green in the conservatory with a knife. So my fellow clue playing junkies will know it's like a sunroom, basically what we would call here in the US. I mean, I would also like to [04:18] never talked about how [04:20] We played Clue [04:21] all the time. It's a staple. And I won never. I'm pretty good at it. You always beat me. Yeah, right. Yeah, I know. Anyways, so according to News Hub New Zealand, Glenn notices the sliding door is open and not like just like a little crack open, like a two to three foot gap. But, you know, he's just kind of like, whatever, you know, she's got a kid, she's coming and going, maybe she left it open and he goes into the house. So he doesn't find it, [04:48] weird that there's just a completely open door there not at all no it doesn't sound like it at least from the research that i found he just kind of goes inside whatever's going on in his head though glenn calls out a hello when he gets inside the house and even though she's expecting him there christine doesn't answer at first glenn thinks maybe she didn't hear him maybe she's back in like their home office and doesn't know he's there yet but when he calls out again and

[05:18] neck start to stand up. So with this strange feeling growing stronger, Glenn goes further into the house, planning to go into Christine's office. But once he gets into the hallway, he sees something that makes his heart stop in his chest. There, he's a little bit of a [05:40] Face down in the doorway to Christine and Mark's bedroom is Glenn's seven-year-old niece, Amber. She is lying motionless in a... [05:50] pool of blood and the back of her head has been split open. Oh my God. Glenn rushes to the phone to call for help, telling the operator that he is calling to report a murder. Like there's no question about what this is. But Glenn's nightmare isn't over because while he's on the phone and checking Amber's pulse, he finally gets close enough to see inside the bedroom where his sister, [06:20] also with blood everywhere. [06:24] While Glenn is waiting for the first responders to arrive, Christine's best friend, this woman named Karen, actually comes over. And she comes over all the time to go for these like normal walks with Christine. And so she's just stopping by as part of her routine. Now, Glenn tries to tell her, like, listen, you don't want to come inside. Like, you don't want to see what's happening. You don't want to see your best friend like that. But Karen goes in anyway, only to be confronted with the same awful scene.

[06:54] huddled together in the dining room until police and ambulances arrived. And when they do, they take over this scene. They lock it down. This is a crime scene now. [07:05] Just a few minutes after, this would be right around 9.20 in the morning, the phone rings. Now, Karen answers the phone. And on the other line is Christine's husband, Mark, who's away on a business trip in Petoni. Petoni is about two hours or so to the south of where they live. And, you know, when he's calling at this time, he has no idea what's happened. [07:35] Christine can't come to the phone right now, but she'll call him back as soon as she can. Why did the police tell her to lie to him? You know, I honestly don't know. It kind of feels a little weird to me. My gut is that... [07:49] they didn't want him learning that from her. Like I would imagine, you know, he's obviously so close to the family. We know that they always look at spouses or family members. And I'm wondering if they wanted to like see his reaction, right? Like, are you surprised? Are you? But I don't know when they were planning on telling him because the guy's far away. Like someone, what's weird to me is why they didn't say like, oh, she can't come to the phone. When are you gonna be back? Or you should head back now. But he was like planned to be back like later that day, I think. So I don't, [08:18] That was a long way of me saying, I have no idea. [08:22] Now, at the scene, even the police are shocked at the viciousness of these murders as they start to process the scene. Based on Amber's position in the doorway of her parents' bedroom, their first thought is that maybe she had come in, saw what was happening to her mom, saw Christine being attacked. And then she probably was like trying to flee, trying to escape when the killer went after her. So she wasn't necessarily a target. We don't know if the killer would have gone after her afterwards.

[08:52] but likely she stumbled onto something she wasn't supposed to see. So when you said earlier that she was laying in the doorway, is she like laying like she's coming out of the room, like feet in the room, torso in the hallway then? Exactly. [09:06] Even though Christine and Amber have pretty clearly been bludgeoned to death, there's no sign of a possible murder weapon during the initial searches. And they won't have a better idea of what killed them until they get the autopsy results back. During the early searches inside the Lundy house, police find a couple of important clues. So first, they find a window in the conservatory that has this broken latch, like it's been forced open. [09:36] is this like bloody smear, which they don't know who the blood belongs to. Is it Christine? Is it Amber's? Is it someone else's? But they know it's important, right? Now, they also find in the house a McDonald's receipt that is time stamped for 5.43 p.m. the night before. Okay, so Marcus is due home the same day. Do we know when he like found out or does he just come home from his business trip like normal, except the police are treating his entire house like a crime scene? [10:06] What I found from the investigator episode about this case is that, so remember he calls and Karen's like, hey, she just can't come to the phone. She'll call you back. And that's at like 920. Well, by 1140 that morning, when Christine still hasn't called him back, he starts getting a little nervous, like...

[10:24] It's been a couple of hours now. You should have called me. What's going on? So he calls up one of his friends, this guy named Stuart, and he asks Stuart to go check on Christine and make sure everything's okay. So his buddy goes over to the house and his buddy's the one that finds the house like swarming with police. And Stuart, not police, actually calls Mark back and tells him like, hey, you need to get your butt back here. [10:50] Right. [10:51] now. So because of that call, Mark hurries back home and he is back there by like 1.15. He's stopped by police. [11:01] trying to get into the house. And they're like, listen, we can't let you in. This is a crime scene. So that's kind of how he discovers what happened to his family. [11:10] Now, I don't know exactly what his first real interaction with police looked like, because when I went diving for more information from the earliest days of the investigation, like I was looking for stuff right after the murders, I was actually shocked at how. [11:26] little I could really find. Now, part of that might be due to the fact that this was happening really like right before newspapers were digitized. I'm also in the U.S. There are some sites I don't have access to. Stuff could have been suppressed by law. Like, I don't know. But like there is this weird like silence period that I don't know how things were unfolding in like the day or two right after the bodies were found. Right, right. But I think it's kind of telling

[11:56] The public really had a blind spot in the early days of the investigation. I mean, they knew something really terrible had happened in that home, but they didn't know the motive. They didn't know how the investigation was progressing or even if police had any kind of persons of interest or suspects. I mean, they were kind of left to wait for bits of information to come out one tiny bit at a time to tell them whether this was targeted or if they should all be fearing for their own safety, if this was just random. Oh, wow. [12:25] Now, from what I can tell, the earliest article that came out about the case, at least in the archives that I can access here in the U.S., is from the New Zealand Herald on September 3rd. So four days after Amber and Christine were found. This is when the public learns that they both died from what police call, quote, violent and severe head injuries. [12:49] This article said that they also had to be identified by, quote, forensic means instead of a visual ID. Like, that's how bad it was. Oh, my God. And police tell the public in this article, like, they don't know what caused the Lundy's injuries yet. But they're asking the public to keep a lookout for clues, which is a little bit vague. Yeah, like, what kind of clues? That's nothing. Anything could be a clue. Right. You just might not know it. [13:19] was saved from the attack because he wasn't home. And police are talking to him to see if he can help shed some light on why this happened or, you know, who could have wanted to do something like this. Like I said, this was a vicious attack. And they really turned to Mark for these answers. They're saying there's got to be a motive. What would inspire such a brutal, heart-wrenching crime?

[13:49] motive. That will lead them to their killer. [13:54] Thank you. [13:56] This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. For some, summer is their favorite season. Travel picks up, kids are out of school, and adventure is in the focus. For others, juggling it all can lead to overwhelm and counting down the minutes until the kids are back in school. And many worry that they're wasting the days of sunshine. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, to support can make all the difference. BetterHelp makes it easy to get started with quality, fully licensed therapists in the U.S. who follow a strict code of conduct. In fact, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform [14:26] million people globally. Their therapist match commitment does the initial matching work so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences. And if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time. It works. BetterHelp has an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash crimejunkie. That's better [14:56] While police are intentionally vague in the media about what they think might have led to Amber and Christine's murders, one week into the investigation, they do go public with what they're thinking is. [15:08] isn't the motive behind the crimes, if that makes sense. And this is when the media coverage really starts to pick up. [15:15] According to Paul Yandel and Alison Horwood's reporting for the New Zealand Herald, based on their initial report from the pathologist, police do not think that this was a sexually motivated crime. So neither of them had been sexually assaulted. The piece doesn't explicitly say that, but that is the impression that they're giving at this point in time.

[15:45] heavy with a sharp edge and possibly a handle. And they make a very bold assertion that is heard by everyone. They're not considering Mark Lundy a suspect. [16:00] By the time Amber and Christine are laid to rest just over a week after they died, it feels like the whole city is grieving along with Mark. The funeral itself is just heartbreaking with speeches from Christine's friends and Amber's primary school teachers. According to John Ogoluska's reporting for Stuff New Zealand, Mark spends the service just sobbing loudly. [16:30] Mark is so overcome with emotion that he literally collapses and actually has to be carried out of there. [16:38] Now, since the media from all over the area is covering the funeral, they document the whole thing. And there is this one picture of Mark that goes kind of viral before going viral was a thing. Some people think it's heartbreaking to see this guy just so absolutely overwhelmed by grief. [16:58] other people think that it's kind of an act and over the top. And here, Brett, I'm going to show you this picture, which is, again, like synonymous with the case. Yeah. [17:08] Yeah, I mean, it's this middle-aged guy. He's wearing dark sunglasses, and he's kind of got his arms over a person on each side, kind of keeping him propped up. They're literally carrying it. Yeah.

[17:18] I mean, this man is literally burying his family and he winds up getting mocked for being [17:23] too upset about it or something. I feel like if he was not upset enough, then we'd be having this exact same conversation just in reverse, right? Exactly. I mean, I think this is something that we've kind of hammered home with people before. So if he wasn't grieving and sobbing and hanging on people and he was stoic, he'd be too stoic. [17:42] And this is where, like, everyone kind of sees what they want to see. But this is by far one of the most enduring images from the whole case. Now, after the funeral, as September continues and the investigation approaches its one month anniversary, police come out and announce something interesting. And this is really the first new piece of information the community has gotten since the murders first occurred. [18:08] Police tell the public that Christine Lundy's jewelry box was missing from the house. Okay, wait. So is robbery suddenly the motive? It's not, actually. Because according to more of Alison Horwood's reporting in the New Zealand Herald, it's the only thing that was missing from the Lundy house. Yeah. And so there's nothing to indicate even that Christine had super valuable jewelry either. [18:35] I think what they're putting out, like they're putting it out to the public to even see if the public has any idea why it could have been taken, because there really is no good explanation for it, at least not yet anyway. [18:47] The investigation continues throughout September without any sign of either the jewelry box or the murder weapon, which authorities believe is key to this case. They think if they can find these items, it might give them more of an idea who their killer is.

[19:02] Now, as they keep looking, their search radius expands and expands out to the river that runs along the southern part of the city. Police even send out multiple dive teams to the river, but every single search they do turns up empty. As time goes on without any arrests, the rumor mill in this little town starts working overtime. Everyone wants to know who's responsible, and they're all bursting with theories. [19:32] father and husband is getting some hard [19:35] side eye, even though police said not a suspect, not a suspect. The gossip and speculation is becoming so overwhelming that by November of 2000, police have to again come out and publicly say that they view Mark as a victim in this whole situation. And so at that point, everyone in [19:57] Then who? [19:58] So what about Glenn? Since he found the bodies, I have to think that he'd be somewhere in this... [20:03] Mix up, right? [20:05] Police aren't really talking about Glenn at this point. You know, I'm sure he was interviewed. There may have been some speculation about him in the early days. But again, going off newspapers at the time, no one really had like a ton of questions about him. So I would imagine he was looked into as the brother, as someone who found both of them. But he wasn't a key person of interest, at least in the public's perspective or in police weren't saying that he was in the early days. [20:31] According to TVNZ1 News, by the end of the year, the investigation is known as Operation Winter, and it is the biggest murder investigation in the history of Palmerston North, with a team of 40 officers spending thousands of hours and thousands of dollars trying to find the person who committed this heinous crime.

[20:52] And then, on February 23rd, 2001, [20:57] out of nowhere. Police drop a bombshell. They announce... [21:03] that they've arrested Mark Lundy for the murders of his wife and daughter. But I thought you just said they were considering him a victim in all of this, too. Yeah. Plus, he was out of town for business on the day they died, right? Yeah. I don't know if they were spinning a different story for the public, if somewhere along the way they changed their minds. But yes, so he has always maintained that he was out of town when this happened. There's no way he could have done it. [21:33] And while police say that they can place him in Patoni, where he says he was away on business, like, you know, parts of his phone workers actually do put him there. [21:43] There is several hours of Mark's time that night that apparently are unaccounted for. Time that they believe Mark used to drive back to his home. [21:55] slaughter his family, and then drive back to establish an alibi. [22:02] At the time of Mark's arrest, police estimate that they've got around 90% of the forensics analyzed, and they're expecting the rest back within two weeks. But without knowing just what those forensics are, everyone is pretty much just left. [22:16] Like, [22:17] jaw dropped. Like, what the heck just happened? How on earth did police even get to Mark when just a couple of months ago, they were basically coming to his defense? I mean, yeah, I have all the questions about this, too. Like, first, what kind of forensics do police even have that, you know, change their mind completely about Mark? The police don't give any specifics, like, at this point, but the media does give out a little bit more detail that the public hasn't heard before.

[22:47] had to be identified forensically. - Yeah. [22:50] So according to TVNZ1 News, the injuries were so bad that police had to use their dental records to definitively ID them. And that same article also mentions that law enforcement now believe the murder weapon was a tomahawk or a small axe. Which would fit right in with what they had said before about the weapon being heavy and sharp and possibly having a handle. Yeah, but still at this point, they can't actually find the murder weapon. So police don't know for sure. This is just a theory. [23:20] And police haven't found Christine's jewelry box either or the clothes Mark was allegedly wearing the night of the killings. [23:28] So while they obviously feel like they have a strong enough case to move forward without these things because they arrested him, the police also turned to the public for help, asking for anyone who saw Mark's car that night or saw anything to come forward. As I'm sure you can imagine, right from the very minute this hits the news, Mark's arrest is a media firestorm. All the public sympathy he had is completely erased. [23:58] of him at the funeral is just eviscerated. I mean, you name it, it's out there. The name calling, the rage, the how dare he put on such an act that mocks Amber and Christine's memory. Literally pick any awful thing to say about Mark, it has been said. The backlash is vicious, and it only gets worse as summer turns into winter in the Southern Hemisphere, and as everyone waits to

[24:28] you [24:29] Just after five months after his arrest, with the one-year anniversary of the murders coming up, deposition hearings for Mark start on July 15, 2001. Now, this isn't a deposition like we think of here in the States, which is like, you know, you have these meetings before you go to trial. Rather, as I understand it, it's closer to what we might call like a grand jury hearing or like a pretrial hearing. [24:59] going to lay out their case in front of two justices of the peace. And they're the ones who will make the decision about whether or not Mark will actually go to like a real trial. [25:09] Now, it feels like all of New Zealand is on tenderhooks waiting to hear all of the details. And once the Crown Prosecution starts laying out their case, everyone is just totally shocked by what they hear. [25:25] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases, and in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. [25:45] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to the deck now, wherever you get your podcasts. [25:56] The Crown confirms that Christine died naked in her bed and that she was probably asleep when the attacks started and then woke up to just unimaginable tear. Again, there's nothing about sexual assault. So I'm wondering if she just slept naked, like if that was part of it for her. Or, I mean, again, we've seen cases, right, where the person couldn't perform or I don't know.

[26:26] As far as time of death, the Crown believes that Amber and Christine had an early night and went to bed around 7 p.m. The headboard on Christine's bed was covered in cuts and notches from whatever the murder weapon was, suggesting even more blows than what struck her. [26:44] According to Murderpedia, the Crown Prosecution tells the court that Christine was hit at least nine or ten times in the head with most of the blows landing on her forehead and her face. And one of the wounds went eight centimeters deep. That's just over three inches. Oh, my God. [27:04] Christine's hands and forearms were also riddled with defensive wounds. Like she had cuts and bruises, even fractures from lifting her hands and trying to protect her face. Like she was fighting. And little Amber suffered from at least seven blows believed to be from the same weapon. [27:23] According to another piece in the New Zealand Herald, based on how Amber's body was positioned in the doorway of her parents' bedroom, it confirms what everyone was kind of thinking, even what police's theory was, is that Amber was not the planned target. They believe that she heard some kind of disturbance coming from her mom's room, came to check on her mom, and then tried to run away when she saw her mom being attacked, only to be killed before she could even get into the hallway. Okay. [27:51] Now, a piece of new information is that the prosecution announces that the blood smear on that broken window actually belongs to Christine Lundy. So it's not some unknown perps like they had originally like theorized it could have been. So what this means to them is that it could have only gotten there after she died. Whoever put that blood smear there was the same person who killed her. So basically what they're putting forward is this looks kind of staged.

[28:21] to these two judges. They're saying, okay, he smeared some blood, broke the latch to make it look like someone broke in or left. And this is where they also explain the jewelry box that no one could, right? Like she didn't have super expensive jewelry. Nothing else was taken. Why take the jewelry box? Their theory is that Mark took it and took the box to like stage a robbery. So it was kind of like setting up for it, right? [28:51] Is there any sort of time of death that's ever been talked about? Yeah. So at the deposition itself, a lot of what the medical examiner said, this guy named Dr. Pang, actually gets suppressed by the court. But the public does learn that Amber and Christine died sometime between 7 and 7.15 p.m. on August 29th. And a lot of this, again, it's suppressed. But what you end up finding out is that a lot of this has to do with that McDonald's that they had for dinner that night, that receipt they had found. [29:21] As the deposition hearing continues, more and more revelations about the forensic evidence police have against Mark start coming to light. According to the New Zealand Herald, both Amber and Christine had paint in their hair. And, you know, paint that they say looks similar to what Mark used to paint the tools in his garage. And to be clear and just to reiterate, they still haven't actually found a weapon yet. Yeah. And as far as I can tell, it's not like there's like a missing axe.

[29:51] But they do have Mark's other painted tools to test chips against to see if they're a match. So, again, for the first time, this is when the public is like getting a better look at some of the forensic evidence they have against Mark. Why did we arrest him out of nowhere? But what we also get in this deposition for the first time is a glimpse at the rest of the prosecution's case, including a witness. [30:21] lives about 500 meters away from their house. And she tells the court that on the night of the murders, she was driving to choir practice at about 7.15 p.m. when she saw something strange. [30:34] She sees this blue car parked near her house. Now, Margaret says she saw someone out jogging. Now, this in itself isn't weird at all. But according to Margaret, this jogger was a large man who was disguised in a long, blonde, curly wig. And she says he was wearing a track suit over top of a business suit and tie. And she said as this man's running, he looks afraid. He looks like he's running away from something. [31:04] it's a weird situation. Yeah. And according to the prosecution's theory, so that car that she saw and this man that she sees, they're thinking that this man is Mark Lundy and he's running away from the crime scene to his car to get back to his hotel in Petone to establish his alibi.

[31:24] Here's like a little thing to note, though. So Margaret, she also testifies that she's psychic, but she's very careful to clarify that she didn't use any of her psychic abilities to like... [31:36] give her evidence to the police or give her story to the police. She basically says like, all me, no powers needed. Okay. So is there anything to back up the sighting? Like, anybody else see this guy? Did they find a wig in Mark's possessions at all? No. So no one else saw this guy. Mark didn't have a wig, at least not one that they could find. But this is one of the things that police like continue to search for. [31:59] Now, [32:00] When putting together a timeline, this timeline of this case is so important. So we know from Christine's phone records that she talked to Mark at 530, at which point his cell phone pings do put him in Petoni. So the Crown saying that basically what happens is right after this call, he like hauls butt home as soon as it ends. And that's like the only way that he could be the man that Margaret saw that night. But they're saying it is possible. [32:28] And one of the other things they bring up is, I guess, Mark would normally call Amber when he was on business trips, like every night to say good night. Now, he does this call at 530 and then he doesn't call back any later at bedtime or like at any point in the evening. So the crowd saying like, hey, you're breaking from routine. We've got these sightings. Like if you were at your hotel, why wouldn't you call her kind of thing? Right, right.

[32:58] Maybe he had talked to Amber briefly at that 5:30 call, like knowing she was going to go to bed soon. So it's totally a possibility. But as far as I can tell, it's not something he or the defense [33:08] ever claimed during the deposition. So this is one of those things where there truly seems to be a missing bedtime call or at least a breach from their normal routine. Mm-hmm. [33:18] As the deposition hearings continue, another one of the public's biggest questions around this whole case finally looks like it might have an answer. It's that motive piece. So ever since Mark's arrest, everyone has been dying to know what could have not just led police to him. We've got the forensic evidence, whatever. But what could have made him do such a terrible thing if he, in fact, did? And the answer is unfortunately so simple. [33:47] Money. You see, at the time of Christine and Amber's deaths, Mark Lundy owed money. He owed a lot of money. Define a lot of money. Like two million dollars. A lot of money. Oh, yeah. According to Anne-Marie May's reporting for Radio New Zealand, Mark was already in debt when he agreed to spend that two million on some property to develop a vineyard. [34:17] show a phone call from an associate in this vineyard operation who was calling him because creditors were starting to hound them. Like Mark's financial situation was dire. And since Christine did the books for their kitchen business, like she knew every single detail about just how bad the situation was. So that's enough to majorly strain even the best relationship, right? Yeah.

[34:47] to get into some quick cash. As it turns out, shortly before Christine Lundy was murdered, she and Mark increased their life insurance policies. Oh. Never a good sign. Yeah. [35:00] According to Murderpedia, their coverage went up over twice the amount that they previously had. So their coverage went from $205,000 each to $500,000. Oh, wow. Yeah, and we find out they tried to get up to $1 million each, but Mark's health issues, like I guess he had prediabetes, high cholesterol, that prevented them from getting a higher limit. [35:30] to at least ease the burden, right? At least for a little while, get the creditors temporarily off your back, buy you some time. [35:39] Even without this money stuff, Mark and Christine's relationship wasn't even the best one to begin with. As the Crown Prosecution tells the court, when he was being questioned by police during the early phases of the investigation, Mark actually told police that their marriage was happy and that they were a very loving couple with shared interests. They like love their local theater community and scout groups, blah, blah, blah. [36:09] had all but dried up, that they rarely had sex anymore, and that Christine was really more of a business partner than a spouse at this point.

[36:18] And we are learning all of this in the depositions because Mark is kind of having to explain why on the night of the murders, he hired a sex worker. [36:31] Oh, yeah. So according to the New Zealand Herald, Mark told police that the sex worker arrived at his motel room after 11 p.m. and was picked up after 1 a.m. And he acknowledged to police that he's hired sex workers in the past when he's gone on other business trips. So basically what the Crown is saying is like, it's one thing after another. I mean, he's trying to use this as an alibi, but they're saying, hey, your alibi is proof that like, we don't think you love your wife. [37:01] seeing another one. Your alibi basically just became your motive. Exactly. So can we go back for a second? The prosecution is saying that Mark killed his family between 7 and 7.15 that evening, and that he was also back at his motel by 11 in time for the sex worker. Yeah, exactly. So basically, they're saying that he set up alibis on either end. He thought this was going to be unbreakable because he's calling them at 5. I mean, again, that's a long time for a drive that [37:31] at 11 would necessarily be an alibi, but we know for sure he's back at his motel by 11. Okay. Okay. [37:37] So we got this super precarious financial situation. We have infidelity. We have Mark's inconsistent statements that him and Christine had this great marriage. [37:47] None of that looks good, right? But it's also not enough to prove one murder, let alone two. And Mark's own defense team points to this, and they note that police apparently still have a list of 20 suspects that they haven't eliminated. Yet Mark is the one who's being arrested. Wait, so they're that confident that Mark is their guy that they didn't even cross off almost two dozen people? Like, that seems really odd.

[38:17] I'm a podcaster, obviously not a detective. But one of the things I've heard over and over from detectives that I've talked to is like you have to close every door until there's one open. Otherwise, they always say like your fear is that you get eviscerated when it goes to trial. Like to their defensive point here, how can you say it's him when you can't rule out anyone else? [38:38] But it's not up to the public. It's not up to the investigators. At this point, it's up to the two justices of the peace to look at the evidence. [38:47] and decide. And remember, there is still a ton of stuff that's been redacted and suppressed. So there's a lot that they know that the public and the press don't know as they go to decide, is Mark Lundy going to be tried for murder? [39:07] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. [39:27] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to The Deck now, wherever you get your podcasts. [39:37] On July 19, 2001, after four days of hearings, the justices of the peace in Palmerston North District Court rule that Mark Lundy will stand trial for the murder of his wife and daughter.

[39:55] By the time the trial starts in February 2002, New Zealand's fascination with this case is an absolute fever pitch. And it feels like the whole country is hanging on every word. [40:06] Right away, when the trial starts, the Crown prosecution picks up right where it left off at the depositions. And one of the people that they call at trial is Mark's own brother, Craig Lundy. [40:19] Craig also questions why Mark didn't call home that night to say goodnight to Amber, since as Craig testifies, this was a normal thing that he always did. [40:30] As they probe even deeper into Mark's possible motive, a fuller picture of the Lundy's finances starts to emerge. So we know from the depositions that Mark was in some serious money trouble. But at trial, witness after witness after witness takes the stand and testifies that the Lundy's were looking at straight up bankruptcy. Mark was six months behind on his payments. [41:00] and bleaker as interest charges erased any headway that they made. You're not even going to believe this. I feel like anyone who's been in even the smallest amount of credit card debt knows it's the interest that you can never get out from under. At one point, they were having to pay an extra $600 a day in just straight interest payments. That's not even on the principle of

[41:30] I won't be able to sleep tonight just imagining that happening to anybody. I would throw up. That'd be horrible. Yeah. So you can kind of like feel this pressure that they're saying was like bearing down on this family. Yeah. And like we've talked before about how money is literally proven to be one of the biggest stress factors in any relationship. But this is on another level. Next level for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So you can you know, I think, again, what they're trying to paint is how desperate Mark could have been. And one of the things that [42:00] Shortly before the murder, so on August 28th, this is the day before, Mark learned that he only had two days to come up with all his money that he owed, making that $500,000 look better and better by the minute. Okay, but like you said before, he owes $2 million. Like $500,000 is a drop in the bucket. But where do you come up with $2 million, right? Like, again, if their theory is correct, I think the thinking is just like, it's something. It will buy me time. [42:30] Mandate, at least. Yeah. To figure out the rest. When Mark Lundy takes the stand, he continues to strenuously deny having anything to do with the murders while the Crown keeps poking hole after hole in his alibi. And as the trial continues, the public fascination doesn't decrease at all because finally, all of the gaps in this tragic story start getting filled in. And the biggest one is really around the timeline of everything.

[43:00] According to the Crown prosecution, everything started off totally normal that day. Amber went to school. Christine went to work. Christine's phone records show an eight-minute call to Mark at about 5.30 p.m. And again, that is the call that we know he was at his hotel for. Mm-hmm. [43:18] Also, it's already public knowledge that they got McDonald's for dinner that night. Remember, police found the receipt was actually in their kitchen. It was time stamped for 5.43 p.m. And we know that Amber and Christine got one chicken burger, one Filet-O-Fish, a nine piece chicken McNuggets, two orders of fries and two apple pies. Then we know that at 6.56 p.m., Christine gets a phone call from a woman in her wine club. [43:43] Wait, so we know that she was alive and at home at 6.56. But do we know, like, what her mood was like on the call? Like, was there anything worrisome or concerning about the call? So according to the investigator episode about this case, the call is only 17 seconds long. And all they'll say about it is that Christine seems kind of testy. Now, this is the last time anyone heard from her. And I, like you, have all the questions about this call. [44:13] But we just know that it was short, not super cheerful. So I kind of wonder if it's one of those like, hey, can't talk now. Like, you know, I'll just give you a call tomorrow. Especially if they're like getting ready for bed, stuff like that. Yeah. But the one thing that they do say is police didn't find anything from that call to indicate that Christine thought that she was in any kind of danger at 656. Okay.

[44:32] By 7.15, though... [44:34] The Crown says she is dead at that point. So a pretty small window of time. [44:41] The medical examiner who performed the autopsies, remember his name's Dr. Pang, he already took the stand during the deposition hearings, but he is called to testify in court. And this time his testimony isn't suppressed. So we learn a lot more. [44:56] He tells the jury how he used Amber and Christine's stomach contents to figure out their time of death. He says that based on his findings of how full their stomachs were and how the food didn't look like it had been well digested at all. And the fact that they didn't have what Dr. Pang calls a, quote, gastric smell, which I guess is like a particular like vomit smell, you know. He thinks that because of all of that, that they had to have died not too long after they ate their meal. [45:26] And, you know, when he's telling the court this, he cites an expert named Bernard Knight in his testimony to basically like back up his claims and basically to like prove his point about how he got to this like small window. [45:39] As part of the defense, though, Mark's legal team tries to cast some doubt on the time of death, pointing to how the family's home computer actually wasn't turned off until 1056, maybe 1052, depending on what source you're reading, the night of the murder. That's almost four hours after Amber and Christine were alleged to have died. Yeah.

[46:09] is at 1052 1056 whatever we know he's like we know exactly where he is yeah we know he's back at his motel yeah no one's disputing that [46:18] Now, to combat this, the Crown prosecution calls up the head of the police's electronic crime laboratory. And this guy says that Mark tampered with the computer, that he was trying to form his own alibi, and that Mark... [46:33] He did something to make it look like the computer was turned off later, when really it happened closer to the time of the murders. [46:40] There's a little bit of ping pong going on about this computer stuff because, you know, then Mark's team gets up and they're saying, listen, he would have no idea how to do this. Like, he's terrible with computers, notoriously bad. Like, everyone knows this. You'd have to really have an understanding of, like, computer files and how to manipulate them. It's just not possible. So, but all we have is Mark and his team saying I'm bad. And then you have a forensic expert saying, like, this is what was done. [47:05] Now, one of the other things that Mark's defense team really drives home on is that really small time of death window. They say that it's proof that he couldn't be the killer since he would have had to, like you said, he's making this drive to the house. He has to kill his family, do whatever he's doing on the computer, run to his car, drive back. And they have 15 minutes to do this. [47:28] So to combat this, the Crown calls a police officer to the stand who says that he actually tested how fast you can make the drive. And he said, yeah, you can totally do it. I could do it even faster if I was kind of like throwing caution to the wind and just like speeding, which, you know, he's kind of insinuating someone who's like trying to make an alibi and kill their family would have done. Like if you're going to murder, you're not really caring about speed limits. But he gets up on the stand saying it's totally possible. Now, we also learned some new stuff about the car in this trial.

[47:58] the investigators believe that like a chunk of gas, uh, [48:02] is missing from Mark's car. I don't know exactly how they got to that. It had to do with mileage and, you know, they know where he last stopped for gas, but they're saying basically a ton of gas is missing. And they look at that and they say, aha, this is proof that you drove way more miles that night than you would have if you hadn't gone home and back. Now, originally, Mark said that the gas was stolen from his car that night. What? Yeah, I don't know. It's like [48:32] I mean, gas is something that happens in New Zealand a lot. It doesn't happen a ton here anymore. I know it used to be a big thing. But also, what are the odds? Someone steals your gas the same night that your family is murdered? Yeah. So they bring this up not only to say that it's fishy, but... [48:50] But in court, it sounds like they're also saying like he specifically lied to us, though. I wasn't able to find anywhere where they like prove beyond what, you know, reasonable doubt our standard here that it wasn't stolen. [49:03] So we learned that that's what he told police during the investigation, this weird story about it getting stolen. But at some point, and this is why it looks so bad for him and why they use it at trial. At some point, he changes his story at trial. It's almost like he realizes how dumb it sounds. Like someone stole your gas, again, the night your family was murdered. Right. And so he kind of like abandons it, says it never happened. Like, it's really muddy to me. Like, I don't know if he acknowledges that he lied. I don't know if he said he forgot. But backpedaling it all is not a good look.

[49:33] all and i don't think there ever is like a really good explanation he comes up with of why there's just all this gas missing [49:39] So as the public goes on to learn, there is this missing gasoline, but there's also missing time in Mark's side of things. According to the investigator episode, Mark's story is that he checks into this motel at like 5 p.m. He says that he gets changed, has dinner, buys a rum and coke, then settles down to watch some TV. [50:00] Again, we know his phone records put him at the hotel in that town at 530 when Christine calls. They have this eight minute call. [50:09] 538. And the crown is alleging that once this is over, this is when he drives back home. Okay, but what do his phone records say about that? Exactly. So there is this weird gap. [50:24] where Mark's phone is turned off from 5.38 p.m., right when this call ends, until he makes a call at 8.28. [50:36] in that almost like three hour time span, [50:39] Phone off. [50:40] completely unaccounted for. So the phone was off or he just wasn't using it because there's a difference. And I agree. Honestly, neither one of them would ping, you know. I agree. So the court records say, I'm going to quote it for you. [50:54] Quote, a lack of cell phone reception, [50:57] through the relevant site inside the motel, end quote. So not 100% clear, but I'm taking the lack of reception as off-off. Okay. Okay.

[51:09] Now, for his part, Mark's adamant that he was still in Patoni and that at some point between the end of the call, Christine and like seven, he says he decides to like take a book, go down to the beach and read. But no one can corroborate this story. And then he says at 828, which is when his phone records show that, you know, his phone's back on. He's making a call. He says, yeah, I decided to make that call from my hotel room. And he's calling an associate. [51:39] them. But I can tell you that Mark's call was about his other business venture, right? That vineyard, which he's like in like a complete like massive debt over. Right, right. [51:48] Now, there's a lot that Mark can't answer for, right? He can't explain why he turns his phone off for three hours. He can't explain why he has gas missing. But the one thing he says he does have an answer for, according to Paula Oliver's reporting in the New Zealand Herald, he says that call that's like missing the goodnight call to his daughter. He said, yeah, we normally talk, but that's when they call me. So he's like, I don't normally call them. So if they didn't call [52:18] Yeah, but if you turned your phone off, then you aren't even expecting a call. That's true. [52:24] So we've got a lot here and, you know, it's all circumstantial up to this point, but even circumstantial or not, the Crown is confident in their case, but they don't want to take any chances. So remember back in the day when they like arrested them? I told you that like 90% of the forensics were like done. Yeah.

[52:40] Well, by the time we're at trial, all of the tests are done. And this is where we get the bombshell. For the very first time, the Crown announces that they've got forensic evidence to link Mark Lundy directly to the scene of the crime. Apparently, there is a tiny sample of both Amber and Christine Lundy's DNA taken from a polo shirt found in the back of Mark's car. [53:10] Okay, but to play devil's advocate, this is a family. And it's not like he was wearing it. It was just in the back of his car where Amber could be sitting at any given time. Christine could have just given him a hug last time he wore the shirt. Right. They lived together. It wouldn't take that much for DNA to be transferred to a shirt. I totally get that. And that is what Mark's defense team says as well. [53:40] off. [53:41] According to Jessica Pishko's reporting in D Magazine, police found two tiny stains on Mark's shirt, one on the chest, one on the left sleeve. [53:51] Subsequent testing showed the stain on Mark's sleeve belonged to Christine, and it is tissue from her central nervous system. So somehow a scrap of Christine's brain matter or her spinal cord made its way onto Mark's shirt. Oh, my God. That's not something you get by hugging someone. Right. Right.

[54:11] And in addition, they're saying that the DNA they found from Amber is most likely from her blood. [54:18] Okay, but... [54:19] How on earth can the defense like even begin to address that? It's bad, right? So Mark's defense team actually kind of brings up like the Arthur Allen Thomas scenario. I don't want to spoil anything for anyone who hasn't heard our episode about Harvey and Jeanette Crew yet. But what I can say is in that story, police were accused of planting evidence to get the outcome that they wanted. And according to the investigator, remember, this is happening in the same country. [54:49] defense in New Zealand ever since. But in the case of Mark Lundy, they never found any evidence to say that the tissue was planted. So they kind of threw this out there as this like, you know, sometimes it happens, but we can't prove it happened here. [55:04] Once the trial ends, the jury spends seven hours deliberating before they return their verdict. And on Wednesday, March 20th, 2002, they find Mark Lundy guilty of murdering Amber and Christine Lundy. And a day later, he's sentenced to life with a 17-year minimum period before he's eligible for parole. [55:27] On the surface, this whole tragedy seems over and done with now that justice has been done, right? [55:33] But... [55:34] Not everyone is convinced. And as the years go on after Mark's convicted, more and more information starts coming to light. Things nobody ever heard before, including the jury who found Mark Lundy guilty of murder. And I promise everything that came out will make you think twice about everything we told you today.

[56:04] been convicted of a horrendous crime. We are going to tell you the entire other side of this story, and everything that could very well point to Mark's innocence, [56:15] next week, unless you're in our fan club, in which case part two is available right now. [56:34] If you are dying to listen to part two, just head over to our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. Click on the fan club link to join. You can also find the blog post for this episode there where you can find all of the pictures and source material that we talk about in today's case. [56:50] and be sure to follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast. We'll be back next week with the rest of this story. But in the meantime... [56:58] Stick around for Prep It of the Month. [57:01] Thank you. [57:17] you [57:17] . [57:18] Music [57:19] *music* [57:23] Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So... [57:26] What do you think, Chuck? [57:27] Do you approve?

[57:37] Okay, so this is a really, really special story that I get to tell Ashley, because it's a story that I think affected all of us at AudioChuck really, really hard and really recently. And again, guys, I'm so sorry, this is a sad story, but I thought it was really important to honor Lucy, the good girl whose mom, Olivia, is a member of the AudioChuck team. [58:00] So back in 2018, Olivia had just bought her first house and she was like, you know what? I'm ready to get a dog. She'd been casually looking and her mom sent over a link from this website called Canines for Warriors and said, Olivia, I found your dog. So Olivia goes to the website and learns more about the program, which I had heard of, but I didn't really know. [58:22] know what they did. And Olivia sent over this clip from the website that says, Canines for Warriors is the nation's largest provider of service dogs to military veterans suffering from post-traumatic stress, traumatic brain injury, and or military sexual trauma. [58:38] Our program is unique, comprehensive, and proven thanks to research by Purdue University College of Veterinary Medicine. We provide each warrior with a service canine, equipment, training, certification, seminars, legal instructions, vet care, housing, home-cooked meals, unconditional love and listening, and a lifetime of wraparound services. In essence, we don't just give our warriors a service dog. We give them the canine's family.

[59:08] free program for veterans. Literally on my notes, I said, cue Waterworks right now. Yeah. She had actually sent me a link to this earlier and I was like, how did I not know about this? This is beautiful. It's an amazing program. I'm so excited to get involved, learn more about it. I'm obsessed. But [59:26] Olivia gets this link from her mom and she's like, [59:28] "Um, I'm not a veteran. I can't get a dog from these people, Mom. Like, I can't take a dog from a warrior. Are you kidding me?" And then she was reading more about it, and there are dogs who don't make it. [59:42] in the program, specifically a dog that was at that point in time named [59:46] Zelda. She had been in the training program for a couple of months, but she was deemed unfit because she became too attached to an antler bone toy. Oh my goodness. And she couldn't continue the training. So now the program was looking to give her a good home with a civilian. Olivia sends an email to the organization asking about available dogs. And she thought about sliding in like a little PS, like, hey, Zelda is adorable. But she ended up deciding against it. And my favorite part [1:00:16] like, actually, we have a dog that we think is perfect for you. Have you looked at Zelda? Oh, meant to be. Oh, yes. But the only hiccup was Zelda was in South Florida and Olivia was all the way up here in Indianapolis. But her mom literally left the nail salon where she was in Florida to meet Zelda. Olivia's stepdad drove all through the night with Zelda from Florida to Indiana up to Olivia's new

[1:00:46] she was officially renamed Lucy, but she came right up to Olivia, who was sitting in her driveway, and put her head right on her shoulder. And Olivia said from that moment on, she was a Velcro pup. And she actually described Lucy as one of those stuffed animals with like the Velcro arms and legs that we had as kids that you just like put around your neck and walk around with like you were really cool. Oh my goodness. And you already know it's coming, but I did say that this was a [1:01:16] after Olivia got Lucy, she had this little bump on her nose that kind of came and went. And Olivia always got it treated. And Lucy never really seemed to be in any pain or discomfort. But this past November, a vet suggested getting some dental work and x-rays of the area. And by dental work, I mean, like, they took out six teeth. And at this point, Lucy was only three years old. That's just young. Not something that should ever happen to a dog at such a young age. And, you know, they try [1:01:46] nothing really seemed to work. Lucy had developed an incredibly pervasive and mysterious bacterial infection that had been spreading rapidly for months. And it actually eroded a lot of the bone and muscle tissue from the left side of her face. And Olivia took Lucy to multiple different specialists and her quality of life was just continuing to deteriorate. And Olivia came to

[1:02:16] on February 5th, 2021. Whereas we say here at Audio Check, Lucy had to move out. [1:02:23] "Yes, Lucy moved out." [1:02:25] on February 5th. And even though this feels so inexplicable, when I was talking to Olivia about this, she feels like she really has a special piece about her time with Lucy. And she said, as someone who is an assault survivor herself, losing Lucy made Olivia realize that she learned so much from Lucy in their short time together. And even though this service dog dropout didn't [1:02:55] through some of her darkest times. And her training, though it was short, in specializing in helping those with PTSD, it truly saved Olivia. And she's become a stronger person and a more whole person in the past two years, all because of Lucy. And she also has developed a huge passion for service dogs and hopes to start training one herself soon. That's amazing. And I think this is [1:03:25] about Lucy that she was a sparkler. She came in so bright and passionate, bringing so much joy and love to anyone and everyone. But like a sparkler... [1:03:36] She just wasn't meant to shine for long. Oh, man. It isn't fair, but she made so many friends and Olivia gave her the best life. Lucy fought hard and loved so much harder. And that's what Olivia hopes Lucy will always be remembered for. You guys know we always do segments promoting organizations. I don't think I need to tell you, but we are supporting Canines for Warriors today.

[1:04:06] they obviously changed Lucy's life, changed Olivia's life. I think they've changed my life now, honestly. I encourage everyone to check out their website. It is canine4warriors.org. And again, like Olivia, thank you so much for letting us tell Lucy's story. It's a really, really, truly beautiful one. Yeah, we at Audio Check, obviously we're local to Indianapolis, so we sponsored a kennel for a year for a dog at the Indie Humane Society in Lucy's name. [1:04:36] And I'm sure no one knows this unless you work for AudioCheck. But one of the benefits we have at work is that on your work anniversary, we give you a certain amount of money on behalf of AudioCheck. We'll donate to any any nonprofit of their choice. Like I again, we're obviously very big into advocacy work related to the crime space. A lot of what we do is related to the space that we work in. But it's also really important to us that people feel like they are making a difference in areas that are really important to them, whether or not. [1:05:06] by us. [1:05:07] Yeah. And so Olivia actually just got with us and said that she wants her donation this year to be made to that organization. So later on this year on her work anniversary, we'll be making a big donation to Canine for Warriors. I love what they're doing. I think it is so special. So even if you can't donate, if you can check them out, if you're in South Florida, you want to volunteer or you're looking for a dog who maybe just didn't cut it. Or I know we have a lot of listeners who are veterans themselves. Yeah. [1:05:35] Again, had no idea this organization is out there, and I think they're doing something really special. Really, really special.

[1:05:41] Thank you. [1:05:44] Okay, crime junkies, you know, I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre, it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that? It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now. And I've been listening for years. [1:06:06] I think you'll love it too. [1:06:07] Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.