MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF: Phoebe Handsjuk

[00:00] Hi, Crime Junkies, it's Britt, and I have big news. One of my favorite seasonal shows, CounterClock, is back with a brand new season, and it is wild. Host Delia D'Ambra is digging into the 2008 Lane Bryant murders. I mean, this isn't just a recap. It is a reinvestigation. She's talking to law enforcement, people from the community, even sources who have never spoken publicly until now. And you know I love a show that asks all the questions. Listen to CounterClock Season 8 now, wherever you get your podcasts. [00:30] Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And today I want to tell you about a strange case out of Australia that I came across years ago. It was a bizarre mystery where a young woman died under suspicious circumstances. And I thought it would always be one of those cases where we just never knew the truth about what happened. But just last year, at the very end of [01:00] This is the mysterious death. [01:02] of Phoebe Hansjock. [01:05] Music.

[01:36] On December 1st, 2010, Phoebe's family and some people close to her got an alarming text message from Phoebe. Though they didn't realize it at the time, this text message was the beginning of a chain of life-altering events that would leave them confused and grieving still decades later. [01:54] At 10:33 a.m., Phoebe's mom, dad, boyfriend, brothers, grandmother, and a few other people that she was close to got this message. [02:04] Britt, I'm going to have you read the message to our listeners. Okay, so the text said, [02:09] Hi, family. I'm in bed, about to sleep. When I wake, I will transform into the most incredible human being, [02:16] you've ever seen. Not. I will go to hospital. It's safer there, and I hear the special tonight is tomato soup. Delicious. [02:25] Nutritious. I love you all very much, but not enough to send an individual text. Sorry about that, but time is sleep and I must be on my way. [02:33] Merrily, merrily, merrily. Life is but a dream. XO. I have no frame of reference for Phoebe, but this doesn't seem great. [02:43] Yeah, I think the contents are alarming coming from anyone because the person writing this just sounds off. And Phoebe's family knew she suffered from mental illness, depression and anxiety mostly. And she had substance abuse issues that likely stemmed from her way of self-medicating. So knowing Phoebe might be in a fragile state, her family is even more concerned to be getting this in the middle of the day. Her mom, Natalie, was traveling when the message came through and she didn't get it right away.

[03:13] with her other family members until Phoebe's grandmother finally calls Phoebe's boyfriend, Antony, just a couple of minutes later at 1035. Antony, who goes by Ant for short, lived with Phoebe in his very fancy high-rise apartment. Though Phoebe was just 24 and struggling to find her true purpose, Ant was a really successful promoter in his 40s, and so he could provide a lot of the finer things for the two of them. Now, Ant tells Grandma that when he left that morning, Phoebe seemed fine. [03:43] had gone on, but there was nothing about her that caused concern. But he says, you know, to ease your worries, like I'll go check on her. Now, it's a little unclear if aunt actually did go home and see her or even call anyone back. But it seems like his initial reassurance that he left her sleeping and she was normal was enough for the family, at least then. I mean, besides Phoebe's dad, Len, was supposed to have dinner with Phoebe and aunt the next day at one of their favorite Thai restaurants. And he'd be able to see her in person, ask her how she was doing and make sure that she's [04:13] So the next day, which is now December 2nd, after Phoebe's dad gets off work, he calls one of Phoebe's phones at 6.51 p.m. Wait, one of Phoebe's phones? [04:25] Well, so she actually had two phones at the time. She had a Nokia, which was hers. And then she had an iPhone that aunt had gotten for her. And it sounds like maybe they kind of shared the iPhone. But it's actually that iPhone that her dad called at 651. So Len was calling to tell her like he was maybe running a little bit late, like he just gotten off work. But the call ends up going to voicemail. Now, he's surprised when not 30 seconds later, his phone rings. It's not Phoebe calling him back.

[04:55] It's actually Ant calling from his phone. In 2016, The Age took their years of reporting on this case and put it into a podcast called Phoebe's Fall. And they point out in that podcast that this call was extra weird because her dad said that this is the first time Ant had ever called him ever, ever, ever in the history of ever. Oh, wow. Yeah. But like, whatever. He doesn't think too much of it at the time. He just gives Ant the news that, you know, like, OK, we're going to meet up, whatever. [05:25] and dad's like what do you mean I mean when's she going to be back we're supposed to be meeting up soon and aunt says I don't know I didn't even know she'd be gone she just wasn't here when I got home from work around like six o'clock but she's got to be around because her purse and her keys are here [05:40] Now, while Ant sounds very nonchalant, this news is deeply concerning to Len, especially in light of that text message that was sent the day before. [05:48] According to CrimeReads.com, Len tells Ant to report her missing, but Ant doesn't think that the police will even take her missing persons report seriously this early on. [05:58] When their call ends, Len starts another phone tree, getting everyone he knows calling around, asking everyone who's known Phoebe or has seen her, like, have you heard from her? But call after call goes to a dead end. [06:12] Len and his entire family were confused and scared, wondering where Phoebe was. But then, that evening, Ant made a second call to Len and told him Phoebe had been found, but she was dead.

[06:26] Len didn't understand. Like he couldn't wrap his brain around it. They were supposed to have dinner that night. She can't be dead. But he quickly had to come to terms with this new reality because Len would have to be the one to tell the rest of the family. Phoebe's mom, her two brothers, her grandparents. [06:43] And, you know, as more of them find out, like I said, I think her family was confused when they heard the news. Like no one is ever prepared to hear that their child or sister is dead. [06:54] When Len and Natalie hear how Phoebe died, they were even more confused. [07:00] What they learn is that around seven o'clock that night, the building's concierge was looking for a broom. She went into the basement room where they keep stuff like brooms and cleaning supplies and the trash compactor. And when she tried to open the door, it just like jammed. Something was blocking it from opening. And she pushed and she pushed, but she just couldn't get it open. So she peeks in the window on the door. Now, it's very dark in the room, but she could see what was blocking it right away. [07:30] floor and blood everywhere. [07:33] It was this concierge that notified police. And police tell Len and Natalie that their daughter died by plunging 12 floors down the trash chute, where at the bottom, her foot was severely cut by the compactor, like almost completely severed off. And she bled to death as she crawled for the door looking for a way out. They go on to tell the family that her death was most likely suicide or just some kind of accident.

[08:03] is done. [08:04] Wait. [08:05] What? I mean, that's everyone's feeling that first night. I mean, this doesn't happen. This doesn't make any sense whatsoever. And when the results of her autopsy come back, investigators used the results to bolster their claim. Phoebe had traces of a drug called Stilnox in her system. And it's a sleeping pill kind of like Ambien, which I think is, at least here in the U.S., a pretty recognizable name. And people are at least generally aware that this kind of sleeping aid can kind of mess with people. [08:35] couple people who've used it before and they have like these almost like hallucinations or they sleepwalk and it's like wild. Yeah. So on top of the still knocks, Phoebe also had a blood alcohol level of 0.16, which is like twice the legal limit here in the U.S., right? Yeah, it's well over the limit here in the U.S. and also in Australia where the story takes place. Well, and on top of that, mixing alcohol with [09:01] sleeping pills like [09:02] that can be really dangerous. Exactly. And that's why those in charge at the time felt comfortable saying, listen, there is no foul play here. No reason to investigate further. Either she was depressed and went into that garbage chute on her own, or she was delusional because of the mix of sleeping pills and alcohol in her system. And this was just some kind of terrible accident. I mean, I guess that's plausible, but... [09:27] God, what a... [09:28] terrible way to go. Well, it's plausible when all you know is that she had a history of depression, had drugs and alcohol in her system, fell, cut her foot and died. But when you get all the facts, learn every minute detail about her death and the days leading up to it, like Phoebe's grandfather did. A grandfather who, mind you, is a retired detective. When you get all of that, you'll see that this case is not quite as open and shut as it seems.

[09:59] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. [10:18] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to the deck now. [10:25] wherever you get your podcasts. [10:30] To Phoebe's grandfather, Lauren, Phoebe's case was jumbled from the beginning. And the more he learned about her tragic death, the more confident he became that both suicide and accident weren't likely possibilities. And there were a lot of reasons why he thought this. First, Lauren couldn't get over the physics of this. I don't know how you're envisioning this trash shoot, Britt, but I remember the first time that I read this story and I kind of imagined like this laundry shoot. [10:59] in the house that I grew up in. It's like this hole in the wall with a flap that you could push inward. And I don't know why that came to mind, probably because that's my only frame of reference. For like a shoot, right? Like that's all I can think of too. Right. But when I looked up the video of this, it's totally different. First, there isn't this flap that pushes in. It almost looks like a drawer that you have to pull out, but it doesn't come all the way out. It's a drawer that kind of fans open. So the top gets wider, but the bottom is still

[11:29] the wall. Does that make sense? So this might be a bad comparison, but kind of like where you would drop off library books at a library? Yes. Okay. Yeah. So you have this steel brushed square with a handle that you can pull out. Okay. So when you pull it out, the widest the opening gets is 37.2 centimeters by 22 centimeters. That's like about 14 and a half inches by eight and a half inches for you U.S. people. So again, about the size of a book, if we're looking at the [11:59] Um, [12:00] drop-off idea. Yes, that's so tiny. Like, how could her entire body get down there? So Phoebe was a small girl. And listen, no one is debating whether or not she was in the shoot. She definitely was at some point. The question is, would it be physically possible for her to put herself in there? Because not only was this shoot itty bitty, but it was also more than a [12:30] in which it was possible. He was sure that this would be extremely difficult, if not darn near impossible. [12:36] So even if Phoebe wanted to take her own life, I mean, this seems like a very, very difficult way to do it. And not to mention a very unusual and painful way to go. Well, what about the theory that this is an accident? Like maybe she was in a sort of delusional state and wasn't aware of what she was doing. So to Lorne, that's not even an option. And I'll explain why. He was so convinced this is physically impossible that he, on his own, contacted the maker of the trash chute.

[13:06] and had a replica made. He got one of Phoebe's friends, who was in similar size to her, so like another really like tiny girl, same kind of fitness, to try and replicate the police's theory of what happened. Now, he actually redid this whole experiment for 60 Minutes Australia. And let me just show you the video, Britt, because it's insane. And we'll have this on our website, too, for anyone who wants to see. Oh, my gosh, seeing the shoot itself, it is so tiny. It's so small, right? [13:36] imagined, but so, so tiny. And the girl they're using is also tiny, but I just don't see how this is going [13:43] to work? And initially she has to put her foot pretty high up, like you said, it's quite a bit off the ground. And [13:51] She can't even get her other foot in without pulling herself up toward the wall. And there's nothing to hold on to. Like once she actually physically gets herself standing kind of in the chute, she's having to brace herself against the wall and the ceiling to even get that second foot in the chute. Yeah, and I think that's an important thing to point out, right? Like at some point when she gets her two feet in there, she's standing straight up. It's not like you can slide your body into this. [14:21] thing and then like maneuver herself before she can even start going down into it. Yeah. And there's a ton of readjustments and repositioning. And she can't even go down like with her arms at her side, even like she has to go down almost like a roller coaster position with her arms completely above her head. Yeah. And the people helping her are even having to like hold the door open so that it doesn't slam on her wrists or her palms or her fingers because it's

[14:51] I think. Right. OK. And again, remember, this is an exact replica of the one that was in Phoebe's apartment. And this part is so important because there were no injuries to Phoebe's fingers, which I mean, you watch them. They have to hold it open. Otherwise, they would have slammed on them. Yeah. Also, Phoebe did have weird bruising on her shoulders and arms, specifically like on her elbows. [15:21] the side and like bracing her fall on the way down. So her arms would be at her side then. Well, exactly. Like, tell me how that can be done. Yeah, I think based on this model and reenactment, I think that'd be impossible. Exactly. And riddle me this, if Phoebe went in there because she was so messed up on sleeping pills and booze, how did she even do it? I mean, you saw how hard it was for a person perfectly sober to get in there. Imagine being just like, [15:51] even a little bit tipsy. Like if I was two margaritas in, that's not happening. Yeah. And again, like the people that I've talked to who have used an ambient, like sleep aid, like, [15:59] They maybe get into their car and wake up or start frying an egg or something, but it's something that they're used to doing. It's almost more muscle memory. There's no way this could have been muscle memory. Yeah, it's not muscle memory. And if she has above the legal limit of alcohol in her system, it's just not possible. [16:18] Wait. [16:20] Is there any chance that she went in headfirst? So we know she didn't. I mean, the most severe damage from the compactor was to her foot. So everyone in this case agrees that she went in feet first. It's actually like the only thing that all sides can agree on. But there is another detail that complicates the physical logistics of this. When Phoebe was found, her jeans were pulled down below her thighs. What? Yeah.

[16:50] then. Right. And you can't even say that the fall dislodged her pants because the only way that makes sense is if she was going in head first, which we already said we know she wasn't. Right. Based on her injuries and blood patterns in the room where she was eventually found, authorities have said that she was alive when she reached the bottom. In the coroner's report, which for clarity for our U.S. people is not an autopsy. So for like in Australia, [17:20] of hearings or inquiries, from my understanding. And in cases like Phoebe's, where the family petitioned to get her death reclassified, it had to go to court and the coroner gets to make the ultimate decision. If the death was an accident, it will change or will it be reinvestigated? Anyway, so from the coroner's report, which I'll link out to on the website, he says that she crawled around in the dark, likely looking for an exit. And it probably took like five to 10 minutes [17:50] in that time when she's fallen and bleeding to death that she's also trying to take off her pants. Which only leaves one possibility that she went into the chute with her pants already pulled down. I'm sorry, [18:03] No, that makes this physically impossible. [18:07] Like, looking back at the video that we just watched, [18:09] The very first move that girl did was lift her leg. [18:12] higher than I could lift my leg to get into the chute before bringing up her other foot to follow while she was like standing, like,

[18:20] That's... [18:21] Definitely not possible with your pants around your thighs. Like that would hold your legs together like a penguin. So you can see why Phoebe's family isn't buying this. And girl, here is something else strange. Put aside the whole pants thing for a second. And let's just pretend there is some way to explain that. Though for sure there isn't. But let's pretend. Thinking back to the video that you just watched... [18:44] To get into the chute at all, you have to grip onto anything that you can find to balance for leverage. The chute, the wall, I mean anything. That girl's hands were everywhere. [18:54] The police didn't find the truth. [18:57] any prints. What? Yeah. Like not on the wall or the ceiling or anything? So I don't know how much they tried to test the walls and the ceilings, but in the official reports that came out, it said there were no usable prints anywhere on that steel wall. [19:17] So not on the handle, not anywhere around it. [19:21] no prints. So to me, that sounds like it was cleaned. So it could have been, could have been cleaned. Some people I've also seen in the reports that steel brush is hard to get prints off of. But as much as we saw that girl touching in the example, wouldn't you think we'd have one usable print? Someone put her in that chute. It's seeming like the only possibility that fits. And as Phoebe's grandfather continues to push forward and investigate, he learns that the

[19:51] Questions he has around how she got in and down the chute are just the tip of the iceberg, because the more they learn about the hours leading up to her death and how the initial investigation was handled, the deeper this mystery gets. [20:08] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. Thank you. [20:27] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to The Deck now, wherever you get your podcasts. [20:39] The more Lauren learns about the day Phoebe died, the more the hairs on the back of his neck stand up. You see, there were some odd things about the way Phoebe left the apartment when she was last seen. Things that should have alerted Ant that something was very, very wrong the second that he walked through the door. [20:58] So the timeline everyone knew initially was that Phoebe was found a little bit after 7:00 p.m. Ant had gotten home right around 6:00 p.m. All was normal in the building because no one had found Phoebe yet when he got home and he didn't learn what happened to her until closer to 8:00 o'clock. And that's about when he started notifying people. But here's the thing, because [21:19] there's always a thing. What they learn is that according to swipe records,

[21:23] And you have to use this like key fob to swipe in and out of the building and to get to your floor. So according to key fob records, Ant didn't get home till around 6 p.m., 6.09 to be exact. When he walked into the apartment, which he can't remember if the door was locked or unlocked. But when he walked into the place, something was off. [21:43] According to the coroner's findings, he sees broken glass on the kitchen floor, another glass on the counter, which to him says smells like vodka. He sees Phoebe's handbag and her keys. And then he keeps walking into the bedroom and sees what he calls a shrine on their bed with everything. [22:02] Like pictures and rambling, non-coherent messages written on post-it notes. Wait, I assume her key fob for the building was on her key ring, right? Yes, right. And you said that she would have needed that to get in or out. Right. Well, then he probably thought that she was at least in the building somewhere, right? Sure. And listen, I totally get that. In fact, something else in the apartment that he found suggested that she'd be right back. [22:32] And plugged in. So... [22:34] Person keys out, straightener on. It looked like she was getting ready to go out. And I assume that she was getting ready for her dinner with her dad. But there was something else in the apartment that should have been a cause for concern. Along with everything else, Aunt saw blood. There was a little bit of blood on her computer mouse and mouse pad. And then a little bit of blood on a door frame. That's not good. No.

[23:04] about this. You walk into the home that you share with your husband, Justin. There's broken glass, a little bit of blood around in different places. His wallet and keys are sitting there. Something that he was using is like plugged in and left on like he was just there. [23:18] But he isn't. [23:19] I mean, what do you do? Ashley, we've literally already been to a situation where I thought I saw his car at my house, and it wasn't his, but we couldn't find him, remember? Yeah, it took you about five minutes to freak out and call me. And you came right back, and we searched the house, and then figured out it wasn't actually his car. Like, I go to 11 really quickly. Well, and... [23:36] does nothing. [23:38] "'Nothing?' [23:38] Even after she doesn't come back for a little while, he does nothing. Computer records show that he's on his computer for a bit. And then at 6.51, that's when Phoebe's dad tried calling her phone. Ant, again, for the first time ever, decides to call her dad out of the blue. And they talk for about three and a half minutes. Do you think Ant was calling her dad because he had heard her phone ring and was just like, hey, I'm going to call you? [24:02] return the call? So, I mean, I think that's what everyone thought initially, but here's the catch. Ant says Phoebe's phone was in the repair shop that day. He says there's no way that he could have known that her dad had called him and that him calling her dad was just this total coincidence. So they have this three and a half minute call. And remember, dad gets off the phone and is like freaking out, needs to know where she is. He's calling everyone. And Ant, I'm not sure. And [24:27] He orders takeout. What? Takeout from the very same Thai restaurant that they're supposed to go to with her dad that night. So if you think that there's any chance that she did just step out for a minute.

[24:41] Why are you ordering food from the place you're supposed to be going with her? [24:44] "Yeah, that's weird." [24:46] So it's when the food delivery guy gets there around 8:00 p.m. that aunt realizes something's up. The delivery guy tells him that there's something crazy going on at the buildings all blocked off. There's police and aunt says something like, oh, well, my girlfriend is missing. I wonder if this has something to do with that. And that's how he learns what happened to her. I have. [25:09] all of the questions right now. Girl, buckle up because it gets weirder. So just like you, Lauren has [25:17] all the questions and he expects that the investigators who were there on day one can give him the answers. Exactly what time did Phoebe die? Was there anything captured on CCTV footage that would help explain what happened? Was the blood in the apartment Phoebe's? Where did the broken glass come from? What do her phone and computer records show? When was Phoebe last seen alive and by who? [25:41] But here's the thing. [25:42] Of all of those questions I just posed, the investigation that was conducted could only partially answer [25:50] One of them. What? Oh, you heard me. You have to tell me which one. So they could give some information on when she was last seen, but not like when she actually died. [26:04] As a mother, [26:05] a sister. I mean, as a freaking human being, this part is going to make you sick to your stomach. So when Phoebe was found,

[26:15] Not a single person, not the person who found her, not first responders, the EMTs, the investigators, not a single person even touched Phoebe to see if she was still alive. No. I mean, like I said earlier, it could have only taken five to 10 minutes for her to bleed to death. So even if she was alive when the concierge found her, she likely wouldn't have been alive by the time EMTs got there. But no one even checked. [26:45] And no one even felt her to see if she was warm or if she was cold. That literally was going to be my next question. Like, did they even feel if she was cold? Like, no, we literally had no idea how long she was laying on that dark garbage room floor. It could have been minutes. It could have been hours. And that brings me to the question that this investigation, and please just know I'm fully air quoting investigation every time I say it, can answer. [27:15] they were able to show Lorne video footage of the last time Phoebe was seen alive at 1143 that morning. There was a fire alarm in her building that went off and it wasn't a real fire. But she and the rest of the residents kind of filed out of the building. She had her dog in tow. And then just a few minutes later, at around 1150, she seemed going back in and she seemed fine. But there's nothing else of her. [27:40] No one who talked to her, no one who saw her, no video of her. So really, because we don't know, was she warm? Was she cold? She could have died any time between noon and 7 p.m. We have no smaller window between that, which to me is just appalling. Like if someone would have just touched her.

[28:02] Is she ice cold? Are we looking at a time in the middle of the day when this happened? Was she warm like she had just fallen? We don't know. I don't know. Was there any other video footage from the building? So great question, but apparently not a question investigators were concerned with. In the initial days of the investigation, they never requested any of the CCTV footage from the building. And by the time that they were pressed to... [28:28] get that. And they were pressed by, again, outside people, not their own internal people. Don't tell me it was recorded over. It was recorded over. I mean, I'm just a podcaster, but even I know... [28:39] You have to ask for that right away. I mean, the root of all our problems in this case is that someone decided it was a suicide from the second Phoebe was found. And so no one even collected the bare minimum amount of information needed to build any kind of case otherwise. I mean, OK, so again, her phone and her computer. Yeah, those were never looked at for months. They were just left in her apartment with aunt. [29:09] had been deleted at some point, though there's no really telling who deleted them or exactly when. And there's no way to tell what they said. Now, the blood in the apartment, they tested that little bit that was on the door and it was Phoebe's blood. [29:24] But they just never thought that testing the blood on the mouse pad or the mouse was important. So they never did. [29:31] The glass that was found on the floor. They didn't even try and figure out where it came from. At some point, it became the accepted theory that Phoebe probably broke a glass, cut her foot or maybe cut her hand when she was cleaning it up. But I don't buy this. Why wasn't there blood in the chute or on the handle? Why was there zero blood by the actual glass itself? Like, if you're going to use this as the accepted theory, I need it to at least make a little bit of sense for me.

[30:01] there weren't prints. [30:03] There weren't prints. [30:05] Okay, I'm going to take a second and throw a theory out. And full disclosure... [30:10] It's a little bit out there. So just for the sake of humoring me and the discussion, I [30:16] What if she's getting ready for dinner with her dad, you know, she's doing her hair, and... [30:21] Why not? It's the afternoon. It's the evening. Let's have a drink. And in the middle of getting ready, she gets a [30:27] glass of whatever and it breaks. And she's already having a rough time. Like you said earlier, she's kind of been on a bender. And I know it seems so small, but maybe breaking the glass is kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back. Like, [30:40] You've said before in an episode that oftentimes suicide, the decision to act on it, happens in like five minutes. And so she's cleaning up this glass. [30:49] goes to throw it down the garbage chute, and in that moment realizes that, or believes that, [30:56] it's not worth it. And why? [30:58] goes down with it. So I've literally played out every scenario a hundred different ways, even this one. And with that one, why only clean up some of the glass and not all of it? Like, again, you make it all the way to the chute. [31:11] but you only cleaned up half of it. That doesn't make sense to me. And why did she decide to set up that shrine? Like, that's not something that happens, like, in a couple of seconds. That seems more premeditated if she set that up. And why pause and go to your computer while you're still bleeding? And you know what? It'd be super easy to disprove this if I could just say there was no broken glass or anything from their apartment found in the garbage chute with her. But again, police didn't collect any of the garbage bags around her.

[31:41] So if she did take the garbage and make the decision, we just have no way of knowing that that's even possible. Or even any sort of other clue that could have. [31:50] been there first. Yeah, I think the whole drinking glass thing was bogus. Personally, the report from the person who was assisting the coroner said that there was no liquid on the floor, no proof that the glass even came from a drinking glass. But there was a mention in the report of a substance on the wall. Was shocker. That substance was never gone. [32:13] test it. It just doesn't [32:15] Add [32:16] But apparently, me, you, Phoebe's family, we're the only ones who think so. Because every official has no problem saying, nope, nothing more to see here, nothing more than an accident. Move on. [32:30] Phoebe's death was closed without any real investigation. And so Phoebe's family was forced to take matters into their own hands. [32:43] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. Thank you. [33:02] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to the deck now. [33:09] wherever you get your podcasts.

[33:13] After years with no progress in Phoebe's case, her family appealed for a formal inquest into her death. That's how we have all of this info that we do. They were granted an investigation. And after that investigation, there is this full inquest where everyone from the case was called to speak and every last detail was analyzed. And it's from those reports that I got most of the information for this episode because luckily they were made public and reposted by The Age online. [33:42] Now, this entire inquest and investigation, it was a horrible and grueling process for the family. But, I mean, you look at this story and the whole time they have to be thinking, finally, everyone can finally see what we've been seeing for so long. And they can finally see that this doesn't make sense. But if you read the reports, and there are two, it doesn't go that way. There is one report from the council assisting the coroner. [34:12] is the second set of eyes and ears, making sure everyone hears and sees the same thing. And their report gives a formal recommendation to the coroner for how they think he should rule. Well, the assisting counsel's report said basically something is up. I don't know what it is, but we should at least rule this death undetermined. But the coroner, [34:33] overrides this and says, nope, it's exactly what it was in the beginning. Tragic accident. Now, I don't know a lot about the Australian legal system, but when I heard the hosts of Phoebe's Fall talk about this ruling, they say that it's super unusual for the coroner and the assisting counsel to not agree. I mean, what is he saying that I'm not seeing? Well, if you read the full report about the inquest, they did spend a lot of time talking to Phoebe's psychologist who did say

[35:03] that in the time leading up to her death, she was the most worried about Phoebe, and Phoebe had made some comments that were the closest she'd ever come to suicidal ideations. So... [35:14] Maybe that was what swayed him. But aren't they supposed to be just dealing with like the facts around the scene in the body? No. So, again, this inquest is more like what we're used to seeing a trial as in the U.S. where they call everyone who's known her. It's the circumstances surrounding it. It's not just the physical evidence. That's why I said when I think coroner, I think it's a different case. [35:35] meaning in Australia than we think about it here in the US. Okay, but I guess I don't care about how depressed she was. [35:44] What they're claiming she did seems to me, at least, physically impossible. I cannot fathom how this got jumbled so badly. Like, this isn't 1950. This took place in, like, 2010 in a big city. The basics of investigations were just completely disregarded. I mean, honestly, to me, it feels like cover-up, but I have no idea why someone would want to cover up Phoebe's death. [36:09] when she wasn't even close to like a political figure. Well, [36:12] She wasn't. But would it interest you to know that Ant's father was a retired Supreme Court judge? Girl. And his stepmother was a current city county judge? You can't just keep that from me. Now, Ant has never been named a person of interest and he was never looked at as a suspect. Not then, not now. Because officially, again, Phoebe's death was and still is considered an accident.

[36:42] After this inquest, after this ruling, everyone outside of Phoebe's family seemed to just be fine moving on. I mean, for years, Phoebe's family continued to live under this dark cloud, knowing something happened to their daughter, but they may never get answers. Her friends found ways to keep going, but never forget about her. And Ant continued working. He dated, married, divorced, dated some more. [37:06] But then... [37:08] Something happened in June 2018. [37:11] Another one of Ant's girlfriends was found [37:14] dead. What? 25 year old Bailey Schneider was a model and a dancer who still lived at home with her parents. On a Friday night in June, she had gone to a party after work. It was in this swanky neighborhood and the house that she was going to belonged to a friend of her boyfriend, Ant, though Ant himself was not there. She was out all night. She gets home around 830 or nine o'clock in the morning and she crossed paths with her parents and they were about to leave for the day and [37:44] And when they got home, [37:46] They found her slumped on the kitchen floor with a cord around her neck. [37:51] She was dead. [37:53] Now, in an eerily similar fashion, police quickly rule her death a suicide, despite the fact that literally in the kitchen, there was nowhere for her to hang herself from. [38:05] Tell me how that works. So... [38:07] What you're telling me is this was a strangulation. I mean, they don't say that. Again, when they come in, they rule it a suicide. And they say that she hung herself, even though they can't explain how. Off of nothing. Yes. Now, they don't collect any evidence. They don't collect her phone. And it took months of her parents pressing before they finally collected her cell. Months of them screaming, this isn't right. Multiple news outlets saying, hey, this is a strange coincidence.

[38:37] In December of 2019, her case got reclassified and there is now an active investigation into her death, though there hasn't been much of an update since December. [38:50] So two very young women, almost exactly the same age, both end up dead in bizarre ways. [38:58] Is it a coincidence? [39:00] Possibly. Again, no one's been named as a suspect or a person of interest in either Phoebe's case or Bailey's. And no one is even being looked at in Phoebe's case since officially it's still an accident. I guess I just don't get it. Like, Phoebe's case seems so clearly to me to be not an accident. And if Aunt didn't do it and Phoebe didn't do it to herself, like... [39:24] Is Ant pushing for answers? Like, is anyone else being considered or? [39:28] Has anyone else been in the picture? Right. No, I totally agree. [39:31] with your point. Like, we're not saying it's an accident or it has to be and I don't think so. It could have been someone else. And in that Australia 60 Minutes episode, every time they talk to her family, they say, like, who do you think did this? And they say, we don't know. We just know that she didn't. Someone else did. And here is a small rabbit hole that I'll leave you with. So first, during the inquest, they found that even though you needed a key fob to get into [40:01] And so, you know, I think that's a good thing.

[40:17] months, like many months after Phoebe died, the forensic team informed the detectives that in the pocket, [40:26] of the very jeans that Phoebe was wearing, the ones that were pulled halfway down when she was found, was a phone number that no one recognized. [40:36] Again, had they known about this or looked into it on day one, maybe that phone number could have led them to someone. But they found it seven months later. And when they tried to track this person down seven months later, the phone was connected to a fake name, a fake address. And they found it seven months later. [40:54] I mean, now the prevailing theory is that maybe it was someone Phoebe bought drugs from, which like enters this whole new character into the story that we know nothing about. [41:04] So would it have been great to have all her phone and email records right away? Yeah. Yeah. [41:09] Would it have been great to see CCTV footage to see if anyone else suspicious was in the building? [41:14] Yeah. Okay, you just... [41:16] blew my mind. I feel like I have a hundred more questions and a thousand more theories after finding this out. Same. I'm going to do a short audio extra in the fan club to talk about a lot of the details that I couldn't cover in this episode that just complicates things even further. I mean, I hope one day for Phoebe's family's sake, [41:35] There's answers. But for now, all we have almost a decade later is questions. And it'll be up to Phoebe's family and the public to keep talking about this and to keep fighting to get her case opened up again.

[42:04] We are going to do an audio extra in the fan club because there is still just so many details about this case that I didn't have time to cover and theories that I really think we should walk through. So you can join us over in the fan club by clicking on the fan club [42:21] Our website is also where you can find all of our pictures in this case and all of our source material for this episode. And really, if you enjoyed this case, I highly recommend checking out the podcast, BB's Fall, for a very in-depth look at this case. [42:37] And as always, be sure to check us out on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode, but stick around for profit of the month. [42:56] you [42:58] *music* [43:00] *music* [43:03] Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? [43:16] Okay, Ashley, so this is the story of Layla. And actually, one of our fan club members sent us this story about a preppet who evidently was a crime junkie fan. So we obviously loved the story. [43:29] It was a short piece on this website called Love What Matters. And the website is just like a bunch of feel-good stories, which I think we all could use a little bit more of right now. I could use so much more. But when they sent it to us, we shared it with our entire office in Slack. And I don't think there was a dry eye in the house. Oh, totally. And originally, I thought that Layla's mom was the listener who sent us this piece. But it was actually someone completely different. It was just some random person who. Oh, no way.

[43:59] in our fan club. [44:00] read this piece and was like, "Crime Junkie, I should tell them!" So I went to the piece, reached out to [44:07] the author of it, who is actually... [44:10] Layla's mom named Jillian. And [44:13] asked if we could feature Layla and she was like, "Of course!" and told me even more of Layla's story. [44:18] And she told me that she has two sons. And for the longest time, their favorite thing to do is to go on YouTube and watch videos of kids opening birthday presents or Christmas presents. And inside the present is a puppy. And they just like weep. And I was like, well, I can identify with that because that's me with like stray dog rescue videos. I was not allowed to watch them anymore. I was going to roll my eyes a little bit because like this is something I'll never understand, like unboxing videos. I know it's like a huge thing on YouTube. Literally, people are making. [44:48] You can say money. [44:49] Yeah, but then you told me it was unboxing puppies. I would watch unboxing puppies all day long. And they just wanted a dog so badly. [44:57] It wasn't a... [44:58] Jillian and her husband, like, [45:00] hated dogs, didn't like dogs, didn't love dogs, but they weren't sure if they were ready for the commitment, especially because they already had two kids. And like, as a parent can confirm, if I have to clean up pee, I kind of only want to clean up one kind. I get it. And no matter what kids say, like, it's going to be my dog, I'll do everything. Like, it never, it never plays out. Parents are very side eye about that argument. Can confirm. But in a moment of weakness,

[45:30] kind of a bad mom. And when they were filling out applications, she, quote, "asked for the George Clooney of dogs." End quote. Wait, what does that mean? Best behaved, cutest, like no issue, like basically an impossible request. Thinking like no rescue is going to look at this application and be like, yeah, we want them. We have exactly what they're looking for. She was like, I'm going to get out of this by just making this [45:55] Super difficult. An impossible task. Yeah. Like, I will say this for my kids and then I'll do this thing and we won't have to ever do it. Perfect. I love it. And like, [46:04] Honestly, props. [46:05] But... [46:06] two days after they submitted their applications, Top Dog Foundation, which is a rescue that focuses on senior dogs, called and they were like, OMG, we have the perfect dog for you. So Jillian and her family go, they pick up this [46:21] long, short, corgi-looking dog named Layla, who had actually been surrendered by her elderly former parents when they moved into an assisted living residence. And Jillian's sons immediately took to being dog parents or dog brothers. They picked up her poop. They took her on walks. They even would throw slumber parties with her, and she would snuggle up in between them. And they [46:51] for her adoption and could they make the move tomorrow? Oh my gosh. And [46:56] Jillian was... [46:57] kind of shocked still didn't want to adopt a dog but she was really sad to see leila leave their family

[47:04] But she agreed to [47:07] drop Layla off the next day to go to her forever family. And Jillian said she even typed up like detailed notes. [47:13] that like Layla doesn't do well in the heat. She sleeps the nightlight. She loves ice cubes and car rides like the kind of junkie podcast and like the kind of list you would give somebody that's babysitting like your firstborn child the first time you leave. That's literally what Jillian said when I talked to her. [47:31] So... [47:32] They hand Layla over with, again, this laundry list of, like, this is how Layla likes things. And the boys... [47:40] had never cried [47:42] harder than I did that day. And for weeks afterwards, all they could talk about were [47:48] all the memories they had made with Layla. And they would even pray for her before bed every night. [47:53] And when they woke up, they would tell each other stories of all the dreams they had where Layla was there. All the while, Layla wasn't getting along with the cat at her new home. Or rather, the cat was being a bully to Layla. And the opportunity for Jillian and her family to bring Layla home came up and they came. [48:13] jumped on it. So right now, Layla is in her real forever home with parents and brothers who absolutely adore her. And get this, for Father's Day, the boys made tie-dye shirts for themselves and their dad, and they even did a little bandana for Layla to match. Of course they did. We'll have to, we will link out to the full story that was like making people weep, but we're trying to do a better job of not making people weep on a Monday morning. But one of, if I'm remembering correctly,

[48:43] where because again mom was like you know kind of anti-dog like this isn't going to be a thing and like she ended up missing her just as much as her boys and wasn't there a point in the story where she's talking about like nose prints or something like seeing those i literally wasn't going to bring that up because i knew it would make you cry but that's the part that made me cry after like a couple of weeks of leila being gone like [49:05] Jillian finally wiped off all the nose prints on the windows and buffed out like the nail scratches on their wood floors. And they would kind of just resign that like they wouldn't see Layla again. And Jillian even said like she would reach out to her new mom and be like, hey, how's she doing? And she would almost like keep in touch with the family just to... [49:26] check up on Layla. Like, I know this has a happy ending and I'm so glad, but I think the reason that gets to me the most... [49:33] Oh, no, I'm breaking the promise. This is why I didn't bring up the nose prints. I knew this story. Because like I think about like when Charlie moves out, when he moves out one day, like that's going to be the hardest thing in the world for me. It's like the nose prints and like, oh, my God. [49:52] Like the hair that's like left in my car, like all the stuff that like drives me nuts now that like I can't get clean. But well, and like and I know Layla's still alive and Layla's happy. [50:03] Like, I still have, like... [50:04] A handful of shirts that have, like, white hair on them because... Oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't think about that. Because Niles is still missing, and, like, it's him. And doggone it, Ashley. I wasn't... I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay, okay. So let's get back to Layla. She is in her forever home. She's in her forever home. She has, of course, a ton of personality. She's a little dog. They all do.

[50:34] on things by herself and even kind of gloats. [50:36] When she succeeds, which I love. And this is one of my favorite stories that Jillian told me. She has to take some medication every day. [50:44] And sometimes they will find her pill pushed under her bowl, which means... [50:49] She picked it up. [50:50] spit it out and then hit it so the family wouldn't know which is just like love sneaky senior dog the cutest thing to imagine in the world um and again uh [51:03] She loves Crime Nucky. Jillian said that, [51:06] Layla is a total mama's girl, like Velcro dog to Jillian's side all the time. So every Monday morning, they cuddle up and listen to Crime Junkie together, which is honestly how we kind of [51:19] found out about Layla. Oh, well, hi, Layla. And Jillian's family only had amazing things to say about the rescue where they fostered and eventually adopted Layla from. It's called Top Dog Foundation. It's based in New Germany, Minnesota. And they not only provide a second act for elder pups, but it also has this amazing program called Hoover's Taxi Network, [51:43] which, get ready to cry again, they... [51:46] help senior citizens who decide to move into assisted living facilities that can't bring their pets along to stay, [51:53] They keep them in contact with their furry besties through a network of volunteers who take dogs, essentially on visits from foster and adoptive homes to visit their former owners in care facilities. So, again, I'm weeping too. And we'll link to Top Dog Foundation and specifically Hoover's Taxi Network on our post about Layla, as well as the piece that we initially found Layla from.

[52:17] on Love What Matters and a ton of pictures of Layla too. [52:21] This has been like a rollercoaster of a puppet segment. I'm so sorry, you guys. I keep telling my husband, like, I've always... [52:29] wanted to foster... [52:31] puppies, dogs. And I mean, I told him, I was like, how great would it be to like, foster a litter of puppies? My dog is one of those sneaky seniors. He's he's too old to get another dog. He gets very depressed. If we even dog sit for someone else. So what time I have with him, like I want to spend with him the best. So I don't want to get another puppy. But I was like, Oh, Eric, maybe this is like our our happy medium. I can just get like a litter of puppies to foster and he's a litter of puppies. And he was like, totally have time for. But then he was like, [53:01] then we're going to have a litter of full grown dogs. He's like, you're going to be so picky. You're not going to let them go to any other homes. And I was like, you're not wrong. I love the idea of like putting myself in a situation where I would need Hoover's taxi network. Like when I'm 70 and have yet another dog and, you know, can't take care of them on my own, can't take care of myself fully on my own, but not wanting to give up my dog. Like, oh, never. Yeah, that is just I I didn't even know that was a thing. And of course, it's one of [53:31] who like when my grandparents had to go to an assisted living home, they didn't have pets. So it's something that I've never even thought about because it hadn't happened to me. But oh my gosh, what would you do? And I love that there's a service like this. Yeah. And again, this is like based with this one rescue foundation. But I'm hoping that like as more people listen to like at least this prepped story, they feel encouraged. Like I'm like about to go over to my Humane Society right now and be like, we need to do this.

[53:57] Yes, I will spearhead it because I think it's an amazing program. [54:00] And like way to like keep morale up and... Yeah. [54:04] And even for the pets themselves. Like, yes. [54:07] Oh. [54:08] I love it. Keep doing keep doing the Lord's work over there in Minnesota. You guys, you're doing awesome. [54:15] Thank you. [54:20] Okay, crime junkies, you know I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre, it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that? [54:38] It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now, and I've been listening for years. [54:42] I think you'll love it too. [54:44] Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.