An inside look at how Miro builds product | Varun Parmar (CPO of Miro)

[00:00] Every single day, [00:01] Every single time somebody is pushing your code to production, and you're releasing a feature or an enhancement, [00:07] you are making the product better or you're making the product worse, but the products never remain the same. And so with every release that your competitor is making and every release that you're making, [00:17] you're either making chess points, moves against them, positive points, or you're going negative. And I think that framework [00:24] It actually drives an insane amount of clarity in terms of [00:27] what you're doing and what the impact is going to be. [00:33] Welcome to Lenny's podcast, where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from their hard-won experiences building and growing today's most successful products. [00:41] Today, my guest is Varun Parmer. Varun is Chief Product Officer at Miro, [00:46] and prior to Miro, he was Senior Vice President and Chief Product Officer at Vox. [00:50] As I share with Varun at the start of our chat, [00:53] I've always been really curious about the product culture at Miro, partly because everyone I've ever met for Miro has been super interesting and super smart, and partly because they've been able to grow as a business and a product in an incredibly competitive market. [01:23] into how Miro got started, how they grow today, and what their product team has learned about working with a large sales org. Varun is amazing, I learned a lot, and I hope you find it as interesting as I did. With that, I bring you Varun Parmer after a short word from our sponsors.

[01:38] Today's episode is brought to you by Miro, an online collaborative whiteboard that's designed specifically for teams like yours. I have a quick request. Head on over to my Miro board at miro.com slash Lenny and let me know which guests you'd want me to have on this year. I've already gotten a bunch of great suggestions, which you'll see when you go there, so just keep it coming. And while you're on the Miro board, I encourage you to play around with the tool. [02:08] colleagues on anything that you're working on. For example, with Miro, you can plan out next quarter's entire product strategy. You can start by brainstorming using sticky notes, live reactions, a voting tool, even an estimation app to scope out your team's sprints. Then your whole distributed team can come together around wireframes, draw ideas with the pen tool, and then put full mocks right into the Miro board. [02:29] And with one of Miro's ready-made templates, you can go from discovery and research to product roadmaps to customer journey flows to final mocks, all in Miro. Head on over to Miro.com slash Lenny to leave your suggestions. That's M-I-R-O dot com slash Lenny. This episode is brought to you by BrainTrust, where the world's most innovative companies go to find talent fast so that they can innovate faster. Let's be honest, it's a lot of work to build a company. [02:59] be able to hire the right talent quickly and confidently. Braintrust is the first decentralized talent network where you can find, hire, and manage high-quality contractors in engineering, design, and product for a fraction of the cost of agencies. Braintrust charges a flat rate of only 10%, unlike agency fees of up to 70%, so you can make your budget go four times further. Plus, they're the only network that takes 0% of what the talent makes, so they're able to attract and

[03:29] Take it from DoorDash, Airbnb, Plaid, and hundreds of other high-growth startups that have shaved their hiring process for months to weeks at less than a quarter of the cost by hiring through Braintrust Network of 20,000 high-quality, vetted candidates ready to work. Whether you're looking to fill in gaps, upscale your staff, or build a team for that dream project that finally got funded, contact Braintrust and you'll get matched with three candidates in just 48 hours. [03:59] That's usebraintrust.com slash Lenny for when you need talent yesterday. [04:05] Varun, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Lenny. So excited to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to have you here. [04:14] I've been looking forward to having a chance to dig into Miro's predaculture and the way Miro works. [04:20] for a while. We've actually had a few guests, ex-Muroneers, is that what you call yourselves? [04:25] Yes, Mironeers. Okay, Mironeers. So we had Elena Verna on the podcast, who's amazing. [04:30] and Barbara, who I think worked in marketing. And everyone I've always met from Miro has been just like really smart and really interesting. [04:38] And it just feels like you guys have a really interesting product culture that I haven't felt like has been shared a lot. [04:45] And so I have a bunch of stuff I want to dig into there. [04:48] And one question I have at the bat. [04:50] You guys have a really interesting history and specifically the way your company is structured, which is that you're co-located in Amsterdam and San Francisco. [04:59] So first of all, is that correct?

[05:00] The company is a global company, so we've got 12 different hubs. So we have multiple offices in the U.S., four different offices, and then [05:09] multiple hubs in Europe as well and presence in AsiaPAC as well. So I think like by now we have a global footprint. Yeah. [05:17] Got it. So a question I wanted to ask off the bat is just how [05:21] has that cross-cultural approach to [05:24] product teams impacted the way that you guys built product and the way the company operates. [05:30] The one thing that's really interesting, Lenny, around the way Miro is set up is that [05:36] Our product organization is actually based in Europe. [05:40] and our go-to-market organization is worldwide. And so our product management team, our designers, our engineers, [05:50] are located across three different hubs in Europe. [05:54] And what that sort of leads to is a couple of practices that we have as part of our culture. So the first one is [06:01] practicing empathy to gain insights. And it's not just practicing empathy in terms of customers and figuring out what customer pain points and problems we can solve. [06:11] But given our distributed nature in terms of having a global footprint and a lot of our go-to-market teams, folks in sales and [06:18] and marketing and customer success are in different continents or geographies. [06:22] we have to make sure that we actually practice that internally. [06:26] So when we are interacting with folks, let's say in San Francisco, and those folks are out there meeting some of our large customers and stuff, how do we in the product organization understand their perspective?

[06:35] and bring that perspective into how we design, prioritize, [06:39] and build products. So I think that's one thing. [06:42] that's unique. I would say the other thing that's less to do with the location, but I think is the core [06:48] cultural value or philosophy that Andre, who's the founder and CEO, has instilled in all of us. [06:54] is practicing teamwork. How do we actually come together as a team and bring down the silos that might exist across functions? I'll talk a little bit around how we are structured in the product organization [07:06] so that it's a cross-functional perspective we bring to everything that we're doing, because we believe the best work happens when we bring different diverse perspectives to the problem and then co-create the outcome that the customer is looking for. [07:20] I want to pull in these threads, actually, real quick. So you talked about this... [07:23] value of empathy and the importance of having empathy across [07:27] because you guys are located in different locations and have different cultures and also this idea of [07:32] of teamwork, what's something that you've done that helps you do that? Either [07:36] Build empathy. [07:38] and maintain empathy across teams or make sure that people work in teams and not like, hey, there's this other team over there doing something else. One of the most powerful sort of [07:48] Things that I've seen work is... [07:51] is the questions that you ask. The questions that you ask when you're going through a product review or [07:57] You're trying to sit down and talk to someone and trying to understand why did they prioritize something over the other? [08:03] And was it something that was done through interactions they've had with folks internally or externally? So I think it's a question.

[08:12] the set of questions to ask in terms of like, how did they get to [08:16] where they are today and was it informed by [08:18] understanding of [08:20] the insights that collectively the organization has, [08:24] Was it informed by their understanding of where the market is involving, where the competition is going? [08:30] Was it informed through the series of insights they have, either through inbound feedback that's coming through our different channels where customers are giving feedback or, you know, some outbound interactions that they've had? [08:41] So I think sort of just like trying to double click and getting to the details in terms of what insight led them to recommend certain things or make a left turn or a right turn is where I think is the most powerful way. [08:52] to make sure that those things are informed through practicing empathy internally and externally. [08:59] Got it. So there's this kind of cultural value of just [09:03] assuming good intention and asking questions to understand where someone came from. [09:06] I don't know if you'll have something off the top of your head, but is there a story or an example of that comes to mind where that was... [09:11] done well or not done well, I don't know, in something you recently were building? [09:15] Maybe there are certain things like, for example, anytime we're trying to build a new experience, one of the approach we want to take is very quickly validate. [09:24] that our original hypothesis, you know, is that sound or not? [09:28] And we are big fans of the design sprint framework. So what Jake Knapp has done, I think, is really amazing in a short five-day window. [09:37] you can get a small set of people to quickly mock up a concept, convert it into some sort of a prototype.

[09:44] and go out there and get some sort of a validation. So oftentimes when we are working on some of these new things, [09:50] We have our product teams that are focused on zero to one initiatives, run this five day initiative and at the end of it, [09:57] we say, oh, this is great. Who did you get insight from? So there's a capability that we recently released. It's called [10:04] Miro TalkTrack, which essentially allows you to asynchronously [10:09] do a asynchronous collaboration by recording audio video on top of a Miro board. [10:15] And we had two fundamental choices we could make. One, we could go down the path of what everyone's doing, where you could do a screen recording and then spit out a series of videos like pixels being captured. [10:27] Or what we did was we actually went down a different path, and the path that we went down was we basically [10:32] synchronize the movement of a board. So let's say, you know, Lenny's presenting a board, you know, some template he's created in terms of best practices for PMs. [10:40] but he wants to have some talk track on top of it, an audio/video feed. What we're doing is we're capturing the movement of the board that Lenny is going through [10:49] along with the video talk track that's on top. [10:51] And the reason why we did that was because we had an insight that came through some of our interviews with him. [10:56] What our users want to do is they want to use Miro for collaboration, while communication [11:02] is an important aspect of how teams come together where we believe our sweet spot is that we want [11:08] people to use Miro for collaboration. [11:10] and by making sure that they could actually use a video recording, and while the video recording is playing, they could add in a sticky note, they could add in a comment, they could actually

[11:19] you know, give a reaction. [11:20] We were able to develop this insight by practicing empathy as part of the design sprint framework when we went and started to show our original concept. [11:28] and the world and built on top of that. [11:31] That is a really cool story. [11:33] And that came out of this sprint framework, these five-day sprint approach. That's right. That is cool. I got to have that guy on this podcast, Jake Knapp, you said, right? [11:41] Yes, yes, yes. I can text him right now and I can make the introduction. Let's pull him right into this podcast live. Tell us how the sprint process works. That is awesome. This connects a little bit to another question I wanted to ask around the top is, [11:55] You guys are in a really competitive space, and it feels like Miro was very early in online collaborative whiteboarding. [12:00] space and then I think during COVID it just became a huge, you know, the remote work exploding, like, holy shit, everyone needs this immediately. [12:07] and [12:08] Over the years, many companies have come [12:10] into the space that you are all in? [12:12] And it feels like Mira continues to [12:14] do extremely well. Like I remember when Figma launched FigJam, [12:18] There's a lot of just like Miro's dead and Figma's getting into the space. They're juggernaut. Game over. [12:23] Clearly that's not been the case. [12:25] And it just feels like, I don't know what it is internally that you all do that continues to allow you to compete and continue to innovate in the space. And I'm curious, just like. [12:34] Is there something to how Miro approaches competition and also just... [12:39] I don't know, the way they approach these sorts of challenges that is unique or interesting that you can share. [12:44] If you look at the mission for Miro, we empower teams to create the next big thing.

[12:52] And our focus is to enable teams that are innovating. And generally, innovation happens [13:00] at the intersection of a bunch of cross-functional folks coming together, like we discussed, folks in product management or design. [13:08] or engineering or analytics or product marketing or research. [13:13] And what we find, Lenny, is that there are a lot of tools out there, and those tools are generally focused on a particular persona. And maybe they're trying to solve the needs of a designer, and a designer has a workflow that they're trying to do, and they're using a specific tool. [13:28] and they sit at the adjacency of extending that core use case. [13:32] The fundamental value that Miro provides is that we enable teams. [13:37] And I think what's unique about our product, and we can talk about the capabilities and roadmaps and use cases that we are using, [13:44] investing in and we already have as part of the product is that [13:47] We take a team-centric lens. We're not saying, "Hey, we're building a tool that just works for designers," or, "Hey, [13:54] we're building a tool that just works for engineers because we fundamentally believe [13:58] that innovation happens when cross-functional teams come together [14:01] And when you look at the problem through that lens, you realize that you have to actually architect your solution. You have to think about the use cases and you have to go and prioritize certain experiences. [14:11] that are different and our customers see value in that. [14:15] And I think that's probably one sort of big macro aspect of how [14:20] we think about sort of our capabilities and products and why our customers think of us differently. So I'd say that's one point.

[14:27] I think the second thing is [14:29] Miro is actually used, obviously, by teams that are creating these innovative products. [14:36] and we actually have broad applicability across industries and verticals. [14:41] So while some tools might be hyper-focused on digital experiences, and Bero's has a great sort of offerings there, [14:49] in terms of core capabilities. What we find is that Miro is used equally by companies in manufacturing, by companies in healthcare, [14:57] by companies in architecture and engineering and construction functions by companies. [15:03] you know, that are in aerospace, you know, governmental agencies and medical agencies and so on and so forth. [15:10] I think the platform is actually much more agnostic in terms of its capabilities. [15:15] and what we offer that actually makes it more accessible. [15:19] and appealing to organizations that want to go beyond digital experiences. [15:26] And then I would say, finally, there are a set of capabilities that are available very, very uniquely to Miro. [15:31] that are valued by our users. That again is a big reason people come to Miro. For example, [15:38] If Lenny's trying to conduct a big workshop with a bunch of product folks and he wants to facilitate that workshop, [15:45] and wants to have certain folks focus on one part of the board and others focus on the other part. [15:52] Then there are some advanced sort of... [15:54] capabilities that enable certain use cases like workshops. Or, you know, if you want to use Miro for some team rituals or from some agile practices, there are sort of core sort of capabilities.

[16:06] that you could use the product for that are missing in some of the other capabilities. I would say a combination of all of those three things, [16:12] continue to drive differentiation. [16:16] And I would say on top of that, we are a big fan of our community and we believe that community love is what drives us. That's the fuel that keeps us going every single day. [16:30] Awesome. So just to kind of summarize, and I was taking notes as you're chatting, just [16:34] Thinking about what allows you all to [16:36] continue to do well in the market. [16:38] considering all the competition constantly coming at you. [16:41] One is you mentioned just... [16:42] There's kind of like a... [16:43] innate multifunctional [16:46] architecture, which is hard for someone to [16:48] if they weren't built from that without the start. [16:51] So it sounds like you are focusing on a much like a wide spectrum of personas. [16:56] And it's not just tech. [16:57] employees basically [16:59] Also, just there's like, [17:00] specific features that end up being really important that maybe people have a hard time building and then [17:05] and then this last piece of the community. [17:07] Awesome. [17:08] Let's dig into the product team a little bit. [17:12] and understand how you all build product and structure product team. How many PMs are there at Miro? And then just broadly, how many employees, just to give people a set of little bit of context? Give or take about 1,800 employees at Miro globally across all of the 12 hubs. [17:27] And specifically in terms of the number of product managers we are working [17:31] We're over 450 PMs in the team. [17:34] And then how's the product team structured? Is it like...

[17:37] outcome oriented? Is it product area oriented? Is it user persona oriented? Is it something else? How do you think about the structure of the product team? [17:46] Yeah, so I would say it's maybe a hybrid structure that we have, but the foundation of the [17:53] of the team setup is around persona. So we have what we refer to as streams, some companies refer to as domains. [18:02] but essentially it's a set of individuals that are focused on solving the problems for a key persona. [18:07] Just to give you an example, we have a stream that's focused on enterprise, and in enterprise, [18:12] We are looking at the IT admin persona. We're looking at the security persona. [18:17] or the compliance persona. So, you know, there are a set of folks who are creating a roadmap and innovating in that [18:22] for that audience. There's another stream which is called Platform. [18:27] where we are going after the developer install base, folks that want to use Miro as a platform and build apps that they can actually make available either on the marketplace for everyone, [18:37] to use, or they could be developers that are inside of a large organization and they're trying to [18:42] integrate Miro with their specific use cases and workflows. [18:46] and business systems. So that's another sort of stream that's focused on that. And there are a couple of other streams like that. [18:52] And then finally, there are some just horizontal streams, if you will. We have a big focus given that we are a PLG. [18:59] led company around growth and self-serve business. We've got a stream that's actually focused on our core. [19:04] internal infrastructure. We've got a stream that's actually focused on data science that's doing all of the magic that we started to release in terms of Nero AI, etc. So I would say it's a combination of those.

[19:15] At the heart of it is we are focused on personas, [19:18] and we are aligning people around solving problems and creating value for that persona. [19:24] That is really interesting. [19:26] One of the downsides of a persona-based approach, I imagine, is that [19:30] products just features keep getting added that solve that [19:33] users' pain points. [19:35] What have you learned about keeping the product consistent and [19:38] Having kind of a holistic perspective on the experience, how do you address those challenges? Architecturally, there are two sort of things that we have done that allow us to... [19:48] not sort of pigeonhole ourselves into that specific way of working and and and i completely agree with you like [19:55] you know, like you could lead to that. The first one is actually, [19:59] When we think about the product org, we call our org, it's called Amped, A-M-P-E-D. And this is actually going back to our earlier point, Lenny, we had around what's unique about the product culture, what's unique about Miro. And, [20:12] We talked about teams coming together, removing barriers or silos cross-functionally. [20:18] So AMP stands for analytics, marketing, product, engineering, and design. [20:22] Everything that we do in the product org, when we say the product org, we actually don't need product managers. We actually don't mean product managers, designers, and engineers. What we mean by product org in Miro is this AMP function. [20:35] And by having this cross-functional representation where product marketing team is deeply, deeply embedded inside of each of these streams, [20:42] What we do is that we have different perspectives that come in where they say, "Oh, wait a second. Did you think about the end user experience?" And if you're thinking about the end user experience,

[20:51] You have someone on the team that says, wait a second, did you actually think about the enterprise requirements or [20:56] what's needed in the largest corporation. So I think, [20:59] The unique setup of bringing these cross-functional folks allows us to course correct. [21:04] The second thing is the ways of working that we have [21:08] We have these product reviews that happen. [21:11] We generally classify anything that we're doing in terms of its complexity around a small, medium, or [21:19] or high complexity and anything that's being worked on. [21:24] is actually being shared with the entire organization. If it's something that's small to medium, [21:30] It's actually shared with the entire product org. In fact, if you are non-product, you can actually subscribe to that Slack channel as well. [21:38] So everybody sees what the product org is working on. Everybody sees what the core hypothesis is, what is the solution for that, what is the proposed design for it, how are we thinking about the capabilities. [21:49] And then anything that's big actually goes through a formal process like a product review where there's a meeting and a bunch of us are in there. [21:56] It's up to us, including the product leaders, to basically make sure that we are connecting the dots in terms of having a much more holistic perspective. [22:05] And I would say lastly, [22:06] As Miro has scaled the spectrum of companies all the way from a team that might have two or three people and might be taking out their credit card and using Miro, [22:15] for their own team all the way to a large corporation that might have 50,000, 80,000 employees. All of them are using Miro.

[22:22] We've come to realize that at some point, the deep enterprise requirements need to be encapsulated in a set of [22:29] requirements or best practices, and we need to make sure that those get democratized across all of the feature teams. [22:36] When I'm thinking about building a new feature, you know, I have a checklist in front of me where I can say, here are the 10 things that I need to think of. [22:42] that I need to incorporate early on in my thinking, in the architecture, in the definition of the process, so that it doesn't come downstream. [22:49] I would say that's an area where we're still working on. [22:51] And more recently, we put more focus and energy, and there's a product manager who's now leading that particular charter. [22:57] I love all these details. [22:59] So this amped structure, I love that. So there's analytics, you said product marketing, Amazon marketing, and then product engineering design. [23:08] It's rare that you see marketing as a part of Teams. [23:11] as a leadership team. [23:13] kind of part of the leadership group? [23:15] Do you have a sense of what impact [23:17] adding that hat on the team or where that came from? Or has that just historically been something Miro has [23:23] prioritize marketing and product marketing. [23:25] So this was done, you know, before I got here and I wish I could take credit for it, but I can't. And I think this was, you know, the result of an observation process. [23:36] which is quite similar to what you're saying, which is, you know, while we might be developing a lot of the features and PMs are sort of thinking bottoms up in terms of what we are building, [23:46] we might find that what we have built might not be able to capture [23:51] the imagination of what we originally thought it would. And a big part of that is how are you going to think about positioning? How are you going to think about competitive differentiation?

[23:59] How are you going to package it up so that the sellers that are out there are able to position it in a way that the customer, in this case, the buyer, [24:08] might be an IT professional, might be a line-up business leader. [24:12] can basically see the full vision of where we are going. [24:16] I think by having product marketing as part of AMP, we now bring that unique perspective that may be missing in certain teams. [24:24] PMs are more acting as product owners or more focused on core problem and solution but not thinking about positioning. [24:31] because that's so important, especially [24:33] when you're thinking about a market that we are increasingly in, that there is competition there. And that's one of the first things. [24:41] we started off with, and that's top of mind for you as well, is that everything that we are doing has to be looked through that lens. [24:47] And one of the core philosophies that I have, Lenny, is that [24:51] The success of a company is a direct relation of what the competition allows you to do. [24:55] I feel like not many people sort of talk about that, but in many cases in my professional career, and I've been at it for close to 24, 25 years, [25:04] is that every single instance when I looked at a company accelerated their growth or there was a deceleration of growth, [25:11] It was a direct relation to what the competition allowed you to do. And obviously, you have to do everything that you should be doing. [25:19] But competition is the biggest variable that allows you to figure that out. [25:24] I want to hear more about your core product philosophies. That was [25:27] But let me dig into the one you just shared.

[25:29] So what you find is that... [25:33] the way you grow or stop growing is often a direct [25:37] result of your competition. [25:39] Is there an example of that that comes to mind? Like, I'm guessing maybe Box versus Dropbox is an experience you had there. [25:44] Or if not, what's an example of that that you've experienced [25:48] to make it a little more concrete even. [25:49] For those of us who've been in the collaboration space, and I've been doing collaboration and productivity apps for over 20 years, over two decades. [25:58] At some point, you have companies like Microsoft that get really attracted to [26:04] to a space and you can see the trajectory of a business that's growing at a certain clip, and then all of a sudden, there's a competitive product that enters. [26:12] that has the might of distribution and the might of pricing. [26:16] And that's just like a direct example. And I think I've seen that multiple times, first at Adobe, where I was part of the document cloud business. [26:24] Clearly saw that at Box as well. [26:27] And I think you can, in general, look at every single category and you can say, you know, there was a category leader and they were growing at a certain clip or a certain pace. [26:36] And all of a sudden, there were a bunch of entrants that get in. And what happens to your growth rate? And it's all dependent on... [26:42] How strong is the competitor in terms of [26:44] providing a good enough solution, that's one. [26:47] and the second is how strong is the competition in terms of their distribution outreach. [26:51] And then the third thing is how strong is the competition in terms of the pricing and packaging. [26:55] I really like this. [26:56] discussion, especially because often the advice is, [26:59] Don't worry about the competition. Just focus on the customer. It's going to be fine.

[27:02] which [27:03] What you're saying is that's not right, and I agree. [27:06] What do you do with that in mind? How does that impact the way you build product or strategy? [27:10] Is there something you could share that maybe tactically someone could [27:14] leverage and [27:15] to how they're approaching their product strategy. [27:18] It depends on who the competition is and what is their advantage here. And we talked about one specific... [27:25] competitor and I have a lot of respect for them, by the way, and I learn a lot from them every single day in terms of how they make bets and how they enter markets and stuff. [27:33] At some point, I'm going to write a book on them, I feel. We'll have to come back to talk about that. [27:38] That's right, yeah. [27:40] And I think it sort of comes down to how do you think about... [27:47] your unique place relative to all of these players and [27:52] and in your customer's mind, are they able to clearly understand what is the unique value that you deliver relative to everything else? [28:00] and part of that is the unique capabilities you provide. Part of that is how you're packaging those unique abilities to them. [28:08] and making sure that they, in their mind, can see how you coexist [28:12] in this overall sort of tech ecosystem that they might be investing in. [28:16] to enable their employees or to enable [28:19] them to work. [28:20] to operate [28:21] And so I think it's sort of looking at that from that lens. [28:26] Got it. So what I'm hearing is be very clear about your differentiator. [28:29] and continue to invest there. [28:31] and then make sure your positioning is clearer.

[28:34] around why you're [28:36] Just identifying here's why we're different and we're not just like a better version of this thing. Here's why we're different and making sure that's really clear. [28:43] Exactly. And I think the other thing I would say, like there's another core philosophy I have, which is, [28:49] Products either get better over a period of time or they get worse. Products never remain the same. [28:54] And I think you can take that philosophy to a bunch of things in life, but I'm going to take the lens of, [29:00] products, which is my core philosophy is every single day, [29:04] Every single time somebody is pushing your code to production, and you're releasing a feature or an enhancement, [29:11] you are making the product better or you're making the product worse, but the products never remain same. And the lens for this Lenny is actually from a customer's perspective, from the end user perspective. [29:21] And the thing is that if you are a player where there's no one else in the market, that's one thing. So that's great. Kudos to you for actually identifying. [29:31] a blue ocean strategy and sort of executing to that. But most markets, most products actually have [29:37] either direct or indirect competitors that are available. From the customer's mind, [29:42] You know, you're doing something, the competitor is doing something. So in their mind, they're looking at these products and they're looking at these companies and they're saying, [29:50] which is better versus not. And so with every release that your competitor is making, and every release that you're making, [29:56] you're either making chess points, moves against them, positive points, or you're going negative. And I think that framework [30:03] If you have in mind, it actually drives an insane amount of clarity in terms of

[30:09] you know, what you're doing and what the impact is going to be. Because every single move that you're making, [30:15] The customer has that in their mind, if not explicitly, implicitly, that they are actually comparing these things. [30:21] And I think it brings a level of focus in terms of where you need to invest and why you need to invest and why this is going to make those decisions. [30:28] I think it allows at least for product leaders to make some high-quality decisions around the bets that they're making. [30:34] and how they're going to play out in terms of like eventual, you know, once the dust settles, you know, and the market at large is going to say, I'm going to standardize on something. [30:43] and now I feel I need to go get it for everyone, or this is the tool that I want to use for this particular use case. [30:49] that all of these decisions that they were making ladder up to that final sort of play that you have to do. [30:54] in terms of the market consolidation that eventually happens. [30:58] This is so interesting. Essentially, what you're saying is that you find that [31:02] being very close to and understanding the competition really well is really essential. [31:08] versus like this kind of the other end of the spectrum almost from just like, don't worry about the competition, don't pay attention. [31:14] I like this point metaphor of just like, are we moving ahead or further behind? [31:18] Is there a way you operationalize that? [31:20] to kind of track that. And then also just like, how do you not over obsess with, [31:23] Let's just catch up, get more features, that kind of thing. How do you find that balance? I'll be honest. I don't think we've figured it out. We haven't cracked the nut in terms of how to operationalize this, but... [31:34] I know you are based smarter than me on some of these things, so maybe we can party on this and come up with something.

[31:43] All right, that'll be something we work on. [31:45] Yeah. [31:46] Any other product philosophies that you want to share? [31:49] That was awesome. [31:51] This is all sort of related to it. It's like a string of pearls. I think there's maybe one more pearl we can actually thread into the needle right here. [31:59] Let's do it. Which is, you know, we talked about sort of how do you ladder this up and stuff. And then the question is, okay, [32:08] How do you know that everything that you're doing is that... [32:13] in the right direction or not? And should you move slow and be much more mindful about the things that you're doing? [32:19] Or should you move fast and make certain bets and then decide certain things and stuff? [32:24] And I think there are two views that are out there. My personal [32:30] perspective on this is that what you want to do is that you want to be the first one to hit the brick wall. [32:36] This is particularly true when you are in a market that is competitive. [32:43] And the reason for that is that... [32:45] If you consider yourself as an innovation-centric company and you believe that you are building experiences that fundamentally don't exist anywhere else and you're sort of... [32:56] paving the way for the rest of the folks to basically get inspired with how you are building these experiences. [33:02] Speed is the single biggest determinant in my experience in terms of [33:09] who ends up being more successful versus not. And I think this

[33:13] I don't know, maybe this is a little bit controversial where people say, "Go slow to actually go fast." And I think I have a lot of respect for that and there are certain areas you should do that. [33:23] But when you are trying to figure out new experiences and stuff, [33:28] and you don't know if it's going to resonate or not. Speed is something that you should accelerate for the organization. [33:36] I think Frank Slootman talks about this. [33:41] a lot in his book and how can you accelerate? And I think for me, from a product perspective, the fundamental concept is like, [33:48] Can you be the first one to hit the brick wall where you have the learning faster than anyone else in the market so that you can decide, [33:56] oh my god, the path that I was going was not the right path. I need to do 10 degrees, you know, [34:01] or I need to do 30 degrees east. [34:04] And I think as long as you're like one or two or three steps ahead of everyone else in terms of uncovering or discovering those things, [34:13] those insights, then I think you can continue to be ahead of the pack in terms of building your product and business. [34:21] You're talking about urgency. [34:22] I've never met a founder or a product leader who doesn't want their team to move faster. [34:27] They're always encouraging their team. How do we move faster? [34:29] I'm curious if there's something you've learned tactically about helping your team [34:34] move more quickly. You mentioned Frank Slootman's book, Amp It Up, is what it's called, by the way, in case folks want to check it out. And he's big on just creating a sense of urgency, constant urgency.

[34:43] And we'll link to that in the show notes. But yeah, what have you found helps create [34:47] Urgency in general helps your teams move faster than just like, move faster, everyone. [34:52] My fundamental sort of... [34:55] Belief here, Lenny, is that every product manager, I can talk to product managers because, you know, [35:02] There is a reason someone wants to be [35:04] a product manager because like in my view it's like one of the most thankless jobs like you get to do a lot of this you should watch and it's like why do you have to do this and there's like uh uh but like it it attracts a certain personality and that personality is driven by challenge and that personality wants to [35:22] prove that they can solve this challenge and do something amazing. So I think [35:28] Fundamentally, the product persona actually wants to move fast. [35:33] I think the reason why in some cases we are not able to move fast is because of [35:39] roadblocks that we run into. And those roadblocks can manifest themselves into technical challenges. They can manifest them in cells of organizational challenges. They could be priority challenges and so on and so forth. [35:51] So my fundamental sort of approach to solving that is to ensure that [35:57] the product leads who are working on these capabilities [36:00] can instantly raise their hand, [36:04] and call out that there are challenges that they are running into. And then the job of the leadership team, the product management team, is to [36:12] essentially go and quickly resolve those issues, right?

[36:16] And I think if you are able to resolve those issues, then what it does is it actually starts a virtuous cycle where you can actually start to see those wins. [36:23] And once you see those wins, you actually... [36:25] create that courage to do more things, [36:28] And maybe because you've seen how that specific roadblock was solved and you have a pattern matching that you've developed now, [36:35] you can solve a lot of those things on your own. And it's the next level of challenge that you're now going to raise your hand. [36:40] What that does is it starts to build this organizational competency in terms of how [36:46] you can figure out what to build. We all find these people in our organizations where there's someone, [36:51] somehow is able to do certain things in one tenth the time that would take a normal person. It's not that they are like ten times faster. [36:58] It's just that, in my observation, that they've figured out [37:01] which part of the code base they should build in versus not. [37:04] who should be part of their team and who should not be. [37:07] how they need to define that from a scope perspective, what does success look like, and it's the architecture of bringing all of these things together, [37:14] that actually brings that magic formula in terms of like, "Hey, we are able to deliver faster." [37:19] I really like this topic. [37:21] What I'm hearing is one of the biggest roots of slowing, slow down in a company and product development is blockers not being unblocked. And I always feel the same thing. Like I feel like a PM's job, like number one job. [37:32] is to unblock their team because their job is basically to make the most [37:36] out of their team that they're marshalling towards some outcome. [37:39] And the way you do that is just figure out what's slowing them down. [37:42] You talked about this idea of a PM raises their hand to leadership. Hey, we're blocked by this thing. Is there a process you've come up with there to help you do that? It's connected to...

[37:51] I would say we are trying to systematically ingrain this in the culture of the organization. So we have a motto in the product org. It's very simple. [38:02] A single sentence. [38:03] deliver customer value faster with high quality that's it and everything that we do [38:08] And when I say everything, everything, like from like, you know, formants and [38:12] reward system and measurements. Everything is based on this one single statement, and it has three attributes. [38:18] The first one is deliver customer value. And we believe customer value is only delivered when customers use it. [38:23] So anytime as a PM at Miro, when you ship something, we're looking at, well, what was the metric you were going to move and how much did it move? And we have some original targets that we can go back to. [38:32] So that's the first aspect of what we're doing, deliver customer value. The second one is, [38:36] move faster, [38:37] There are certain cycle times that we are measuring across the organization. From the time you came up with the idea to the time that you actually pitched a solution, to the time you actually shipped it, to the time we actually moved the metric, [38:48] It's information that has been collected and is being made available to the organization. And you can say, "Hey, [38:53] If it was a small, medium, or large, what's the average, what's the median, what's the variance? And you can say, "Hey, looking at this data, what can be improved?" So that's on the faster aspect of it. [39:02] Then the last one is around high quality, which is [39:05] We want to build best-in-class collaboration experiences, so we are always getting inspired [39:11] by what we find in applications and experiences that we see around us. And we are saying, "Hey, [39:17] When it comes to, you know, [39:19] Designing sharing flows, we believe that these are the three apps that have the best-in-class sharing flows. When it comes to

[39:26] designing some synchronous capabilities. These are the best in-class apps that we should look at. We are always trying to make sure [39:33] that we are benchmarking ourselves against that. We have a design team, [39:36] on a regular basis, like when we ship stuff on a monthly basis, our design leadership team [39:40] does a triage of everything that got shipped [39:43] into like [39:44] high quality or not high quality it's just like a binary function and we're doing that and we're saying hey [39:49] The reason why we believe it's not high quality is because of A, B, C, D, E, and we're making it available to other designers so they can actually start to build that telemetry in terms of some things are [39:59] more subjective, but you can start to see some pattern matching and say, "Hey, this is what [40:04] This is what it looks like. This episode is brought to you by Linear. Let's be honest, the issue tracker that you're using today isn't very helpful. Why is it that it always seems to be working against you instead of working for you? Why does it feel like such a chore to use? [40:20] Well, Linear is different. It's incredibly fast, beautifully designed, and it comes with powerful workflows that streamline your entire product development process, from issue tracking all the way to managing product roadmaps. Linear is designed for the way modern software teams work. What users love about Linear are the powerful keyboard shortcuts, efficient GitHub integrations, cycles that actually create progress, and built-in project updates that keep everyone in sync. In short, it just works. [40:50] default tool of choice among startups, and it powers a wide range of large established companies such as Vercel, Retool, and Cash App. See for yourself why product teams described using Linear as magical. Visit Linear.app slash Lenny to try Linear for free with your team and get 25% off when you upgrade. That's Linear.app slash Lenny.

[41:15] Okay, so every month or so, the design team looks at everything that's shipped [41:18] and puts things into a bucket. Either this is, it's like a binary thing, high quality or not high quality. [41:24] Wow, that is so cool. [41:26] One, what do they do with that? Do they send it out to the product team? And then two, is this just like FYI? [41:31] Or is it like we need to fix all these low-quality things going back? Or is it more just like for the future, please be aware these are not high-quality? [41:39] Yeah, so it's actually both. So generally what happens is that the design leadership team is doing this and there's one particular design leader. [41:47] who's the designated person to make sure that this is happening on a regular basis. And right now, the way we're using it is that we are actually [41:55] using it to calibrate and align around the design leadership around what we mean by high quality. [42:01] Because it's one of those things, right? It's like... [42:04] If you've never seen colors, and I ask you, Lenny, describe pink and compare that to red. [42:11] If you haven't seen colors, how do you describe colors? You can't. But if I show you and I say, "Lenny, [42:16] These are three examples of what pink is and these are three examples of red is. Then you're like, "Oh, I get pink and I get red." [42:22] So there are certain things that when you write it, it's very, very hard to describe it. But if you show specific examples, it's very clear. Oh, I get it. I get why. [42:31] how pink is different than red but if i try to describe it it's going to be very hard [42:35] So we got into these endless conversations at some point about a year ago where we were saying, we need high quality, we need high quality, and people were like, [42:41] Let's just go and define this thing. And we had a bunch of our [42:45] Leaders go and write documents, really long documents, in terms of what are the attributes and how do we define those attributes?

[42:53] How do we measure those attributes and how do we enable people to do that? [42:57] It felt like it's a good thing because we are trying to codify it, but it also felt like it was a very heavy way of solving that problem. [43:03] We just came up with this approach, which is like, what's great versus not great, and just start classifying it. And as you know, it's like modern AI systems are like classification systems. I was just going to say, it sounds like. [43:13] Reinforcement learning approach to defining quality. That's right. That's right. [43:17] And I think it's worked decently well, I would say, with most things like [43:22] we need to operationalize it and we need to make sure that now we are democratizing it and everybody has access to it and so on and so forth. [43:29] But I think it's been a good start. And now, you know, we are sharing this more openly with others in the org. [43:37] When I said that, I imagine you, from the outside, you have a very unique culture and approach to your product. There's a great example of that. I've never heard of a process like this. [43:44] So what I'm hearing is essentially you're trying to build the muscle within the organization of what is quality. It's like this... [43:49] Continued. [43:50] heuristic of like okay I get it and so PMs on the team start to like understand in their head what that means [43:55] Right. [43:57] Super cool. [43:58] You also talked about the middle part of that sentence, of moving faster, and the U. [44:02] track and measure that somehow. Can you talk more about that? Because that's something [44:05] Every product team is always trying to understand, how do we know if we're going as fast as we could? [44:10] How do you actually do that? How do you measure these things? [44:13] The core philosophy there is like, you know, velocity is more like the game of golf where you're just playing against yourself. Like, it's not like... [44:22] If Lenny and Varun are out of the golf course, it doesn't matter. I'm not competing against you. I'm just competing against myself. I'm going to just hit the ball.

[44:31] It's like, how much better can we get? So I think our core philosophy is around that. And what we're trying to do is that, you know, [44:37] on all the product teams, the feature teams that we have. [44:41] collecting all the information. [44:43] and we're making it available to everyone so that they can actually see what the cycle times are. [44:48] And what we're interested in is from the time that you have an insight, from the time you believe, "I can do something unique for my user," [44:56] for my persona. [44:58] How long does it take for you to actually deliver that value? We have a product process that we follow. [45:07] which starts with the P-strad, which is a strategy, and then we go into P-zero. [45:11] which is the definition of the problem. Then we go into P1, which is the definition of the solution. And then we go into P2, which is once the solution is shipped, [45:19] Are we hitting the metrics that we originally had defined upfront before we decided to work on this? [45:26] You have all of these stage gates, and then we classify everything that we're doing in small, medium, large. [45:33] And you can go in and you can say, "Hey, I thought this was a small thing." And a small thing is something you can get it done in less than a month and so on and so forth. [45:41] There are 50 other product teams that are shipping these features. What's the average? What's the variance? What's the median? [45:47] And oh, wait a second. Actually, it seems like I took way more time in the problem definition stage. Let me actually try to go talk to this other product team that actually did it. [45:56] much faster or oh you know i actually did it really really fast and the reason why i did it fast was because of this let me go share this out

[46:03] with the broader team. [46:04] And usually, the product ops function, we call it product excellence internally, like the product excellence function. [46:12] is recording some of these things. I would say, [46:15] getting reliable data, and then because we have some things that are going through meetings, and there are some things that are going through Slack, [46:23] We could do better on some of those dimensions, but all of this data is available and we provide it openly and folks can benchmark themselves against that. [46:34] So cool. Okay, so you have this pstrat, you called it, document, which is kind of like an initial concept. [46:40] And then it's interesting to use the PZRP one, which is often for bugs, but it's cool that you use it for bugs. [46:45] defining your products. [46:46] So P-Strat is just like an idea pitch. [46:49] P0 is a spec, basically like a one pager for the product. [46:53] and then P1 and P2 are basically getting to like, here's the actual product we're building. [46:57] And you basically track time per step. [47:01] and map it to here's how large this project should be. And over time, you track per person. It sounds like just like are you matching the benchmarks of like how long a small project should take across each step? [47:12] Yeah, exactly. Wow, that is extremely cool. [47:16] Uh, [47:17] Whatever templates you can share of these things that we can include in the show notes would be awesome. [47:21] Yes. [47:21] Because people are always looking for just like, I want to do some of this stuff. And if I just plug and play, the more the merrier. [47:27] Yes. [47:28] Shifting a little bit, [47:30] It sounds like you guys are doing Scrum in some form. You just talk about

[47:34] just broadly the product development process like how long are your sprints how long do you plan [47:38] for in the future in detail, specifically just like high level, how does the product development process work? [47:44] So there are certain things that I learned at Box and that inspired some things that we do at Miro. [47:53] and there are certain things that we've evolved. So one of the things that [47:56] we've instituted as sort of, you know, a roadmap process, right? So that's sort of the first thing around [48:02] how the different teams are looking at the things that they're going to work on. So, [48:08] We have a rolling six-month roadmap. It seems large, but we've got, like I mentioned, a number of enterprise customers and [48:16] If I've learned one thing that large enterprises like, it's asking for a roadmap review. So that tends to be... [48:22] my favorite meeting of sitting down with the enterprise leaders and walking through what we are working on. So what we've done is we've tried to architect something which actually allows our customers to get what they're looking for, but at the same time, [48:35] does not remove the agility that is so important for us. [48:39] to deliver value faster. [48:41] And so what we do is we have a rolling six-month roadmap that gets updated every three months. [48:46] And the first three months of that roadmap, we have an 80% precision level, which means that [48:51] 80% of the things that we claim to be on the roadmap will get done. That's the target. [48:56] And for the next three months, because it's six months, so the first three months is 80%, the next three months is 50%. So we have a much lower

[49:04] level of resolution in the next three months after that. And what that allows [49:09] the product teams to do is actually have flexibility, which is [49:12] based on what the customers are asking for, based on what the competitive moves are, based on some technology breakthroughs that happen around large language models, they can pivot and they can pivot and move towards that. [49:22] and they won't get penalized either by the customer or internally in terms of doing that. [49:27] So that's what we do, and that's all on the backdrop of an annual strategy that we publish. [49:33] Every year, we publish a strategy white paper. [49:38] that it gets published internally, available to every single mirror and error across all functions. [49:44] that clearly articulates [49:46] the key bets that we want to make, why do we want to make those bets, what is the expected outcome, and how does that ladder up into the overall business outcomes that we're trying to drive from an OKR perspective. [49:55] as well as the overall business strategy that we have. [49:58] So people take that product strategy, white paper or artifact, and then against that, they're building their roadmaps, which get updated every three months. [50:06] And then inside of the teams, we enable teams to be quite autonomous in terms of [50:14] some of the rituals that they're doing. We want them to obviously embrace best practices. We've got a team of agile coaches [50:20] that share best practices or are available [50:25] to help if there are certain specific needs that teams have. [50:31] And then I think like on top of that, there are certain key, like I would say, rituals that we do.

[50:36] that maybe are unique. For example, [50:40] We have something called Miro Connect, which happens every other Friday. [50:43] Every other Friday, for example, in our Amsterdam office, [50:50] You can go in there and at four o'clock in the afternoon, you know, four to seven or eight. And sometimes it goes really late. [50:56] You've got a bunch of product teams sitting around tables and it feels like, oh, it's like a trade show or something. And you just people are coming in. They're having a good time. You've got a drink in your hand. [51:05] There's maybe some light music playing in the background, and you're going from table to table, and you have teams that are actually showing all the amazing work that they're doing. [51:12] And if done right, it happens once in a while, but if done right, it's magical in terms of the outcomes that you can get. So I'll tell you, there was... [51:21] a team that was presenting at our Berlin hub, [51:24] And they were saying, we're working on this feature. And there's an engineer who walks over to that desk. [51:33] and says, what are you working on? And the team describes it. Oh, we're trying to do [51:37] something like this. This engineer had actually worked on that particular problem, [51:42] in their prior life. Literally, they had implemented this. [51:46] So he says, "So how are you going to implement this?" And the engineer that's sitting there says, "This is the approach I'm going to take, and it's going to take me three months." And he's like, "Oh, would you mind [51:54] If I go and help you with this, and they're like, sure, more the merrier, go ahead. [51:58] So this person puts down their beer and says, "Okay, I'm having a good time. Let me just head back to my home." [52:05] and in the next three or four hours goes and codes the entire thing, makes a pull request,

[52:09] And next day in the morning, one of the engineers from this core team that was exhibiting at MiroConnect, you know, looks at the pull request, you know, reviews the code and says, yes. [52:18] Something that would have taken three months for this core team because they didn't have the expertise. [52:22] literally got done in three hours because there was another engineer that ran into them and said, I know how this is done. I can actually help you here. [52:30] and went ahead and did the right thing. And so we're trying to create these magic moments. It happens once... [52:36] Once in a while, but we have one success story. And I like to tell that in every opportunity that I get. [52:43] But that's another sort of unique thing that we've done in terms of bookending things around how we operate here. [52:50] That story is like a dream for NEPM. Just imagine, saving months of work with one conversation. [52:57] I imagine people were like, "How do we replicate this often?" [53:01] I love that! [53:03] With these meetings, just understand if their team is in Berlin, let's say, [53:07] there's a screen there, like in front of a table, and they're like talking through a screen, like a video conference? Yeah, I mean, like right now, what we've figured out is that it is really hard to do these events, you know, over, you know, audio video conferencing and stuff. So generally what happens is that [53:23] you have an audio video bridge that's playing but mostly it's people walking up to the the respective teams and then having like a live conversation like that's [53:31] That's usually how these things are operated. Yeah. Got it. [53:34] Okay, so you have six-month rolling roadmaps. You have a yearly... [53:39] vision strategy for the company.

[53:41] two-week sprints, [53:43] Is there also a quarterly OKR sort of process, or is it... [53:47] Yeah. Or not. There is. Okay. Can you just talk a little bit about how that works? [53:51] Yes, yes, yes. At Miro, we practice OKRs and it starts off at the company level. And then those company level OKRs are taken by the AMP organization, like we describe it's the AMP organization. [54:04] and then we break it up. I would say we have refined it over the period of time, the two years that I've been at Miro. [54:12] And early on, we were doing OKRs on a quarterly basis. And I would say more recently, we've actually evolved to six-month ARs. [54:23] And what we found was that six months was the right cadence in terms of giving enough time for teams to basically push forward. [54:31] in executing these KRs and minimizing [54:35] the quote-unquote overhead of doing replan every single quarter. [54:42] and we found that it was much more effective and efficient for the entire organization to do it on a six-month basis. [54:49] we are doing traction on a monthly basis. Every four weeks, [54:53] As Ampt, we are looking at our KRs for the Ampt organization on a monthly basis doing fraction. [55:00] However, the planning, the targets, [55:02] are done on a six-month basis. I love how OKRs could just be anything. It could be every six months, [55:11] Could have objectives, could have key results. It's just such a term that it just applies to anything that people do with goals, basically. That's true. And it works. It's great. That is so true. And again, if there's any templates that your team could share of the way you do that stuff, that would be amazing. I'm going to include that in the show notes.

[55:27] Yeah, absolutely. Because I think, as you would expect, we run Miro on Miro, so there's a lot of things that we could share as templates in terms of how we are running things on Miro. [55:39] not just as OKRs, but in terms of product reviews. And, you know, we have a [55:43] ways of how we are doing asynchronous reviews combined with synchronous reviews. And there's this blended experiences that we have. And so we can definitely share out with the community how we do some of these things. [55:54] Awesome. And that's a great segue to another question I was going to ask is just what other tools [55:58] What's in the stack of the product teams? [56:01] uh, [56:01] workflow. So Miro, obviously, [56:04] Maybe talk about what you use Mirror for, but then what else is in there? What do you use for task management, bug tracking? [56:10] Things like that. [56:11] design? Sort of starting from the bottom up, like infrastructure up view, like so we all of our tickets are handled in Jira and, you know, we're using some of the Jira [56:23] newer capabilities in Jira in terms of coming up with roadmaps and coming up with the priorities and stuff. [56:30] On top of that, all of the specs generally get recorded in Confluence. [56:37] Having said that, we're actually a big fan of tools like Google Docs as well as Coda. [56:42] that allows us to track RKRs in a pretty effective way. [56:47] On top of that, obviously, we use Miro a lot, I would say, [56:53] for a lot of things. [56:54] especially on the product and design side of the team.

[56:59] Generally, all of our insights get captured inside of MiroBoards when we are going and [57:06] conducting user experience interviews and stuff. We will record those, and then those recordings get added to a Miro board, so Miro acts as the content hub. [57:16] or a team hub for a particular project. [57:19] Once you capture all of those insights, then generally all of the brainstorming and [57:25] and team ideation happens on the Miro board as well. Miro is also used as a tool to facilitate meetings. [57:32] and workshops. Once all of that is synthesized into a set of recommendations and outcomes, so when we go into these product reviews that we were talking about, Lenny, [57:41] The same Miro board then gets manifested into a set of presentations. So we use Miro for presentations. We've actually made some really amazing updates in terms of our capabilities there. And if folks haven't checked them out, I would strongly encourage them. [57:54] So there's a capability called Showtime that basically abstracts out the UI [57:58] and lets people focus on the content, but do it in a way that it's interactive. So everyone that's on the call, [58:03] can have reactions, can share their comments. [58:07] leave comments while the presentation is happening, without actually disrupting any of the flow for the user. So we use that a lot for presentations as well. And I would say more recently, what we've started to do, [58:17] is that we've started to move some of our synchronous meetings into async review. So I talked about this talk track feature that we have. [58:24] And a lot of teams, what they would do is that they would actually send you a five-minute, ten-minute talk track in advance.

[58:30] And it's just a link to a mirror board. You click on it and then you just sit back and relax, you know. [58:34] And then you have this magical experience where you're sitting back and the Miro board is automatically moving because Lenny was like recording it like that. [58:41] and then you have the video play. You can pause it anytime. You can add in your comments and stuff. [58:45] so that the next time when you meet, instead of actually providing context to everyone, those synchronous sessions are a lot more deliberate and focused on, [58:53] driving outcomes or achieving consensus. [58:56] So people are just focusing on the comments that were added as part of the async product review. [59:01] so that when they meet synchronously, they can use that. So Miro boards are used for that as well. And I would say now, [59:07] A lot of our dashboarding shows up in MiroBos now. We recently released data visualization capabilities around most popular BI tools. [59:15] So at Miro, we use Google Looker a lot. A lot of our dashboards are in Looker. And what you would typically find is that our analyst team and product teams will just grab a link to a Looker dashboard, put it on a Miro board, and it unfolds into a full visualization. [59:29] And unlike a screen grab, you never have to go update it because right there on the mirror board, it's always updated. [59:34] and you can refresh that. You basically have this [59:38] This experience where Miro acts as that single source of truth for a lot of the teams across the entire journey of product development, [59:45] where a single Miro board is beating the needs of multiple use cases there. [59:51] And then for the roadmapping, is that in Miro, like each team's roadmap, or do you use something like Jira? [59:57] Yeah, so I think we've got a couple of tools for roadmapping, and our observation is that while those tools are great for the unique needs that they're solving, we haven't found a universal solution for roadmapping.

[1:00:09] There are some teams that use Miro for road mapping, and they would use the Kanban widget in Miro for that. [1:00:16] What are they working on? What's coming next? What's in the backlog? [1:00:19] But I would say it is a problem that is not completely solved in terms of how do we actually bring these artifacts together at scale. [1:00:26] What we are starting to see, and this is actually a unique use case of Miro, is that we actually enable our entire field organization using TalkTracks. [1:00:34] So what happens is that we have our entire roadmap published out as a mirror board. [1:00:38] for enablement purposes. That's an artifact that is approved to be shown to a customer. What you will see is that you'll see five or six recordings in there. [1:00:48] And, you know, the leader for enterprise has done a five minute recording on everything they're working on. The leader for platform has done that. The leader for end user experience has done that. [1:00:57] The person who's driving some of our AI experience has done that. And so you can go in and you can just click on that video. [1:01:02] and you can self-serve, meet your needs by using Miro and this capability that we have. [1:01:09] That's awesome. And it sounds like each team can basically choose the tools they want to use. There's no standardized. Everyone needs to use. [1:01:15] Jira or Miro for their roadmap. [1:01:17] I like that. I like how teams do that often. [1:01:20] Maybe one last question around the product org, and then I want to shift a little bit to growth and how Miro grows and things you have learned about growing. [1:01:27] So, [1:01:28] The question I always try to get to is, [1:01:30] How do you think about balancing new [1:01:33] That's [1:01:34] and innovation, [1:01:36] with [1:01:37] maintenance and just general incremental work.

[1:01:40] Do you have some sort of philosophy as a product leader broadly and then maybe at Muir specifically of just like how to balance investments in these two buckets or maybe three buckets, you know? [1:01:49] bugs, incremental work, and then just big bets. [1:01:53] How do you think about that? So, you know, we have some rule of thumbs in terms of like how we want to allocate, you know, our investments across these buckets. And I would say. [1:02:03] A lot of it, Lenny, actually depends on the state of the team. There are certain teams that [1:02:10] have more tech debt than others. [1:02:13] There are certain teams that are actually working on some really big zero to one features than other teams. And so I think like there is a variance, you know, the standard deviation actually is dependent on like which part of the spectrum that you're in, which is. [1:02:23] Are you a team that we believe needs to create the next generation experience on the platform? And hence, we have to prioritize. [1:02:29] innovative work or are you the team that's actually so critical to actually [1:02:32] meeting our objective around better board performance or any of the other things that we believe are important and hence we need to invest in those [1:02:40] in those critical areas. But I would say in general, [1:02:43] innovation versus not varies on a spectrum of anywhere from 60% to 80%. [1:02:50] So I would say about 20 to 40% of the available capacity at any given time is either getting allocated [1:02:56] to architectural initiatives. There's a technology roadmap that our CTO [1:03:01] is driving that we believe is extremely important as the platform scales. And now, as you know, we have over 50 million people on the platform. [1:03:08] We continuously have to invest in making sure that the platform can scale.

[1:03:12] And there are certain teams that probably have 40 to 50% of their allocation towards that because they're a critical part of the component. [1:03:18] and there are other teams that are maybe more end-user focused and are more UI focused where that allocation is lower. But I think the general rule of thumb is, [1:03:25] 20% is always a given, but it can go as high as 40 to 50%. [1:03:30] on bigger bets and longer term thinking. [1:03:33] Yeah, 20 to 40% goes on the technology-related initiatives. Oh, got it. Like infrastructure maintenance, making sure everything's there. [1:03:42] Run the business. Exactly. Yeah. And then what about just big long term bets that you're not expecting to pay off anytime soon? Do you have a heuristic of just what percentage of, say, total resources you put there? [1:03:53] You've probably seen the framework of 3Horizon, like it's quite popular, like McKinsey, and so on and so forth. It's like Horizon One business, which is the thing that's delivering food on the table. [1:04:07] Generally, there's about a 70% allocation of resources that we have to overtake. Then there is Horizon 2, which is an adjacent thing. Over the next 12 to 36 months, we believe it's material. [1:04:18] Usually that tends to be around 20% of the allocation. And then there's Horizon 3, which is like three years out, you know, three to five years, you know, next generation things. [1:04:25] And that's about 10% of the ratio. So it's like 70, 20, 10 across Verizon 1, 2, and 3. [1:04:30] Awesome. [1:04:31] Any other thoughts along the lines of just how you think about product before we shift [1:04:36] And I only have a few questions around the growth. [1:04:38] kind of story of Miro and what you've learned about growing? [1:04:40] In terms of product leadership and what we believe is the way we want product leaders to be developed, and I think it's more of a people philosophy.

[1:04:53] And so we have our product leadership, which constitutes of all of the folks who are running all of these streams. And I always tell them that you have two personas that... [1:05:03] you have to think about. [1:05:04] Everyone who's on the product leadership team is a product leadership team member. And the fundamental thing that you have to do is drive accountability. [1:05:13] So the number one thing that a product leader on the product leadership team needs to do is drive accountability with others in the product leadership team. [1:05:21] The other persona that they have is that they are a stream leader. They're actually responsible for delivering value for the respective persona and respective customers and stuff. [1:05:30] So when you put on the persona hat of a stream leader, which is different than the persona of a product leader, [1:05:36] Your number one metric, the number one goal that you have [1:05:39] is drive improvement. [1:05:41] So when you go back and you work with your team, [1:05:44] Always have the lens, are you improving things? And whatever you want to improve, but you always have to ask yourself, [1:05:49] Today compared to yesterday, tomorrow compared to today, have I improved things? And that's the yardstick you should think about. [1:05:55] When you go sit in the Product Leadership Team every Monday morning, every Monday afternoon at 1:00 in the afternoon when we meet together, [1:06:01] Your number one goal is actually to drive accountability around this. And are you making sure that we as leaders in the organization are doing the right thing for the [1:06:08] for the company. And I think that's a philosophical construct that I always remind people in terms of what they should be doing. So as an example, tomorrow we have calibrations. We have our annual review cycle happening. [1:06:21] in the company. Always fun and so critical as a leader.

[1:06:27] because it sets the tone for everything that you're going to do. [1:06:31] And, you know, in my opening remarks, the only thing I'm going to remind everyone in the room is that your number one goal here is to be a product leader and accountability is what you have to write. That's it. [1:06:41] Just hold each other accountable, including myself. [1:06:44] in terms of making sure that as we go in, like, that's the key thing. And I think like, [1:06:48] Once people understand the duality of how they need to operate across those two specific goals, [1:06:54] it actually leads to really high-performing teams and teams that actually [1:06:59] are able to create somewhat of a magic, if they are open and there is trust that has been built in the team. [1:07:07] And when you say accountability, what does that look like? Is it [1:07:10] pointing out, hey, you didn't achieve this thing we were trying to achieve. [1:07:14] or you didn't do a great job leading this meeting is it just like [1:07:18] Direct Feedback. [1:07:19] often or is there some other way you see that manifested and what do you like to see [1:07:24] Yeah, I think it's basically practicing feedback in a very open and constructive way and focusing on what is important for the business. [1:07:34] and not shying away from having some of those observations and conversations, you know, not shying away from them. [1:07:42] But it's all in the lens of what is the right thing to do for the business and if you feel [1:07:47] that one or more members of the leadership team are not living up to what needs to be done than just voicing it. And it's not like you're complaining or anything. It's just like, I have this perspective. [1:07:57] Is this the right perspective or not? Because actually it ties very well with the overall cultural values that we have.

[1:08:02] If you do things with the lens that you are being empathetic, then you pose it as a question as opposed to a statement. [1:08:09] And I think that's one of the things that we practice a lot at Miro is that I believe that I am seeing there are certain things that are happening. [1:08:16] that it could be just me that I'm not seeing the other things. But what is it? Can you help me understand? Can you help me? [1:08:22] figure out why certain things are happening because I might just be missing the perspective. [1:08:27] But because you bring it up and that's part of practicing accountability in an empathetic way. [1:08:32] it actually gets the entire team in the right mindset in terms of how they operate. [1:08:38] Has anyone given you some sort of direct feedback recently or pointed out something you didn't do well that held you accountable that you can share? [1:08:46] -All the time. -All the time. When we do our off-sites, this is actually a fun thing, is that every off-site that I do with my leadership team, usually there's a one to two-hour session. [1:08:57] where it is feedback to Verone. [1:09:00] And I actually do it openly. I will have about 8 to 10 people in the room. [1:09:05] And I will force people to be very honest. And I want to show my vulnerabilities to everyone that I am not perfect and I have [1:09:13] lots of areas to improve. [1:09:16] And every time people do it, it's interesting that they open up in a very... [1:09:23] amazing ways and I think I love it because it helps me [1:09:26] become better. It helps me identify my blind spots. [1:09:29] But what it does is because I do it in an open way, it brings a lot of trust. It brings trust that

[1:09:36] I do it openly and I'm an open book and they can share whatever they want, not just with me, but openly in front of everyone. [1:09:42] Are you willing to share one thing they suggested that they pointed out that they wish you did differently or better? [1:09:48] Yeah, I think in general, finding time with me tends to be a bit of a hard thing. [1:09:56] And generally, there's always this feedback, which is like, need more time, maybe more responsiveness over email or Slack or something like that. [1:10:05] And that's an area that I'm constantly working on and improving. So, yeah. That feels like a cop-out. Like, that doesn't feel too painful to hear. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I know. [1:10:16] I don't have a lot of time, I'm sorry. [1:10:18] But I get it. I get how... And that comes back to your point about blockers and how important it is to unblock. [1:10:23] teams because that leads to [1:10:25] a lot faster progress. [1:10:26] That's true, that's true. [1:10:28] Okay, so let me shift a little bit to Miro's growth, and I only have a few questions here. I know it's getting late in your sights, so I don't want to keep you too long. [1:10:34] Sure. [1:10:35] The first is something I'm on this constant quest to understand how [1:10:39] Companies got their first users. [1:10:41] And I haven't actually heard the story of how Miro got its first thousand users or customers. I know you weren't there in the early days, but do you happen to know how Miro [1:10:50] initially grew and got their first thousand users and customers? You know, I think the fundamental thing there is that we always had user-first approach. [1:10:58] and reaching out to certain communities that were relevant to what was a key part of lighting the fire, if you will, the proverbial way.

[1:11:07] people to start to talk about the product. [1:11:10] And given the collaborative nature of the product, you know, some of the early adopters invited people who were also early adopters and sort of the flywheel started to work. [1:11:20] I've heard that [1:11:22] We did a fair amount of content marketing and listing the product on sites like Capterra helped. [1:11:29] There was some early investments in terms of [1:11:32] SEO and organic growth. So, there was a focus there which was the main source of driving [1:11:41] traffic, the top of the funnel came through that. [1:11:43] The product teams were very intensely focused on sort of [1:11:48] building vital loops as a key mechanism of driving growth once the traffic came in. [1:11:53] And every interaction that actually introduced barrier, they looked at it and they looked at the data and they said, let's reduce this barrier, let's remove this thing. [1:12:01] so that the product could be effectively [1:12:04] embraced and it was an evolution uh over a period of time uh you know there was also the fact that uh [1:12:10] Early on, [1:12:11] In the journey, some of the features were presented on a trial basis. [1:12:16] And then later on, the model was evolved from a trial basis, time limited, to a premium model that further accelerated. [1:12:26] growth for the business. I would say those were some of the [1:12:29] approaches that were taken to get to the first 1,000 users or so. [1:12:33] So you talked about how Miro grows, where it has this magical loop of

[1:12:38] I use Miro for myself. [1:12:41] Then I share it with my team and [1:12:43] in whatever way I'm using it. [1:12:44] They're like, oh, Miro, this is cool. And then they start using it, and then they share it with people that they want to work with and increase this. [1:12:50] loop of growth. [1:12:52] And I imagine that's how Miro mostly grew initially and continues to grow. [1:12:56] Is there anything... [1:12:57] Surprising or unintuitive? [1:12:58] about how Miro grows that is beyond that. I imagine sales are part of it and we can talk about that, but is there anything else that is interesting that is worth mentioning? [1:13:07] No, I think that's the key of the growth. I think there are specific use cases where [1:13:14] They are uniquely geared towards inviting a lot of net new people. For example, Miro is loved as a workshopping tool. Generally, one person is using Miro, but they invite 10, 15, 20, 50, 100, 200, 300 people. [1:13:27] to that workshop so there are specific use cases where people get introduced to the product and then go and sign up for it and then start to [1:13:34] use it for that use case or other use cases. [1:13:37] I think the other sort of accelerant in all of this is the templates that we have, in particular, [1:13:44] the role that Miroverse plays in all of this and [1:13:48] Just to give you an example here, there was a template [1:13:54] which was created around FIFA World Cup. So there was a FIFA World Cup diagram. [1:14:00] Cornel X, you know, he's the founder and managing director of a Canadian strategic service design consultancy firm. He created this Miroverse template. [1:14:07] And it had over 100,000 views and about 15,000 copies were made.

[1:14:15] of this single template. [1:14:17] And, you know, given sort of the popularity of all of this, like it actually got... [1:14:21] indexed by Google. So when you went into search, [1:14:24] you actually saw the Miroverse FIFA template show up [1:14:29] when you were trying to search for FIFA World Cup. [1:14:33] And that was another sort of acquisition channel top of funnel that actually drew a lot of users to it. [1:14:39] I would say the Miroverse is also a key accelerant to this. [1:14:45] If you had to think about the pie chart of how Miro grows, what percentage roughly would you say is word of mouth, organic? [1:14:53] versus what you just described, which is essentially SEO. [1:14:56] versus sales, outbound sales. How do you think about that? Is there a way to kind of model that [1:15:01] Simply, [1:15:02] Without getting into specific numbers and stuff, I would say fundamentally, Miro is a product-led growth company and product channels are... [1:15:12] one of the highest contributors for growth of users. [1:15:18] As the business has evolved to serve the needs of some of the largest corporations in the world, [1:15:26] the enterprise segment and the enterprise persona when they're trying to provision Miro for [1:15:32] tens of thousands of users who then go conduct hundreds of thousands of workshops on Miro that invite millions of users on the platform. [1:15:41] is a key part of the flywheel that we are seeing. [1:15:44] I would say product channels are probably very strong, and increasingly enterprise is a key part of that acceleration.

[1:15:53] A great segue to our final question, which is, [1:15:55] The idea that you start a product like growth sounds like clearly it's a big part of growth today. [1:16:00] But as every product-like growth company does eventually, you have a large sales team, I imagine. [1:16:05] What have you learned as a product leader working with sales, especially at a product-led growth company, about how to make that relationship work and have a product work? [1:16:13] work effectively with its sales org. [1:16:15] There are a few learnings, and I would say maybe this is one area where we're working on how we could be doing better in terms of [1:16:25] bringing our self-serve closer to our high touch and bringing high touch closer to self-serve. [1:16:32] in terms of how we operate overall. [1:16:36] It's a lot of hard work, I would say, first of all, basically, to bring these organizations together and you have to be very deliberate. [1:16:44] around the points of intersection and you have to make sure that [1:16:48] these organizations don't consider themselves as competition. It's one product, one company, it's just two. [1:16:55] two channels of how we are serving our customers. [1:16:59] There are some things that we've done, which is have the product marketing team [1:17:04] that basically works across both of these functions and makes sure that [1:17:10] They are bridging what we are hearing from the sales organization in terms of what directly customers need. [1:17:17] on the enterprise side and then what do we need on the self-serve side?

[1:17:23] There's a full process in terms of how the handoff happens [1:17:27] across the majority of the account. It can start as a self-serve, [1:17:33] It drives adoption and once there's adoption, there's a hand raiser that happens and then [1:17:38] There's a sales rep that gets engaged and you go through the qualification process and then you have an opportunity to [1:17:44] expand the account. So we've over the years architected and built the entire funnel and what the process is. [1:17:51] And that's also sort of a key part of how all of this operates. [1:17:57] But like I said, I think there are a few areas where we could further streamline how we operate and think of it as sort of one single unit. [1:18:04] I imagine that is true for every company out there. [1:18:07] One maybe final question before we get to our very exciting lightning round. What are some features that [1:18:15] people could look forward to that are coming with Miro. [1:18:18] We recently, about a month ago, announced Miro AI, the backdrop of [1:18:25] all the amazing work that's happening around generative AI and large language models and stuff. [1:18:30] It was really exciting to see all of the community enthusiasm around the use cases that we launched. [1:18:37] We're going to be taking it across the finish line and doing general availability in the coming weeks and months. So I think that's one big thing, and we'll be adding more capabilities there. [1:18:46] Just today, we actually announced a bunch of really deep [1:18:51] enhancements and updates around how Miro can be used for team rituals and agile practices.

[1:18:57] So now, you know, you can actually do retrospectives in Miro where you can have a private mode where while Lenny is typing his feedback during a retrospective, nobody else can see it. [1:19:06] and then one click, you can reveal it. And I just saw some of the results of the feedback, and it was rated as the number one feature people saw. There's also some deeper integrations in terms of bringing an entire program board from Jira [1:19:20] to start to do dependency mapping inside of Miro in a fun, [1:19:25] and collaborative way to use this dependency mapping along with program board to start to do PI planning, program increment planning, which is essentially scrum of scrums or big room planning that's happening. [1:19:37] So there's some really amazing capabilities that we've added there, which is on the backdrop of [1:19:41] some of the updates we've made in terms of estimation of sprint story points and so on and so forth. [1:19:47] Now, there's a whole plethora of capabilities and apps that are available as part of the platform. [1:19:54] that allow you to have your entire team conduct your [1:20:00] your team rituals in Miro, and you can automate certain things, you can streamline things, you can do certain things in async, and then [1:20:07] do the rest in synchronous ways. So I think that's been a big update as well. [1:20:12] Amazing. [1:20:13] With that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got six questions for you. Are you ready? [1:20:19] Yes. [1:20:20] Alright, let's do it! [1:20:21] What are two or three books that you have recommended most to other people? [1:20:26] One is, I love this, when breath becomes air.

[1:20:29] by Paul Kalanithi. It's one of those really emotional books that at the end of it, you might have tears in your eyes. But really, really amazing. We talked about Frank Soutman's Amp It Up, and then Satya Nadella's Hit Refresh. And I think philosophically, some of the things that we [1:20:44] we talked about today are inspirations that I found in some of these books. [1:20:49] What's a recent favorite movie or TV show? [1:20:52] Ted Lasso, I don't know if it's a recent one or not, but like something... [1:20:56] Yeah. [1:20:57] I've enjoyed a lot. I think it's like a very positive and uplifting message, you know. [1:21:03] I think the performance is huge. It's humorous. The characters are well developed. So I think overall [1:21:10] It's a treat, at least for me to watch. [1:21:13] What's a favorite interview question you'd like to ask? [1:21:16] I actually ask a math problem. So for those of you who interviewed with me, [1:21:21] I have this math problem, which is based on how Adobe created its first Creative Suite bundle. [1:21:28] And I was actually part of the team that came up with the pricing and packaging for the first creative suite post acquisition of Macromedia. [1:21:35] It's a math problem that allows you very quickly to figure out people in terms of their problem-solving skills. [1:21:44] And usually, I give that problem to people. I've given it to, I don't know, 700-800 people. So, I now have a very well-established standard distribution of [1:21:53] how long it takes for people, where do they get stuck and where they've gotten stuck. [1:21:58] for those people I've hired, what evidence do I have in terms of using that as a framework in terms of them being able to solve things? So that's...

[1:22:06] That's my favorite question. And so you're saying you've mapped back [1:22:10] people that have done a certain way on the problem with their success. And you've kind of found that it's a good signal of their performance. [1:22:17] Yes, not directly, but like, yes, correlation and stuff. That's amazing. That's like one of the biggest problems with interviewing. You think you're asking all these amazing questions and it's such a good signal. You have no idea. [1:22:27] No one goes back and is like, oh, this person sucked, this person didn't. [1:22:30] So that's really cool they have that much data on that one question. [1:22:33] Two more questions for you. What's something relatively minor that you've changed in how you do product development that has had a tremendous impact on your team's ability to execute? [1:22:44] We talked about some of that, like sort of removing the roadblocks. I think like having this motto of like, [1:22:49] create customer value faster with high quality, just the simplicity of that. It's actually part of our evaluation rubric. It's part of how we [1:22:56] measure ourselves and stuff. So I think just coming up with these simple concepts that you can rally the organization around, and I think it's still a work in progress, but [1:23:04] something that I believe is leading to positive outcomes. [1:23:07] Final question, what's your favorite Miro template? [1:23:10] It's the FIFA World Cup, actually. I was so fascinated with what was done. Yeah, it's the latest one. But I think there's a bunch of them in terms of retros as well. [1:23:19] like your template as well. Amazing. We will link to all of those. Varun, this was amazing. Everything I expected and more. Your team is as interesting and unique as I thought. [1:23:31] And I am excited for people to learn from you. And we're going to share a lot of links alongside this episode in the show notes.

[1:23:37] Two final questions. Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out and learn more? [1:23:40] And how can listeners be useful to you? [1:23:43] Thank you, Lenny. It was a lot of fun. I enjoyed our interaction. [1:23:49] You know, you folks can find me online on LinkedIn. I think that's probably the best way to connect with me. [1:23:55] One or two things I can ask everyone is that one is if you [1:24:02] are an existing Miro user and you use the product for something interesting, I highly encourage you to contribute it as a template as part of Miroverse. There's a lot of folks who use that. [1:24:12] and we would love for you to contribute there. The second thing is, [1:24:16] I know a lot of product development teams, PMs and designers are big fans of you, Lenny. [1:24:22] Those are also the users that use Miro. So if there's anything we could do to make the product better, if there's things that you feel like we can expand the platform into, [1:24:30] We would love to hear from you and just reach out to me directly over LinkedIn, direct message or connect with me there. [1:24:37] And let us know. You're here to see. Amazing. [1:24:41] Varun, thank you again for being here. Thanks, Lenny. Awesome. [1:24:45] Bye, everyone.