New York Wins the Title, Brunson Wins Immortality, and Knicks Fans Have a Zihuatanejo Moment With Zach Lowe

[00:00] For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. [00:07] Tremphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphaya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremphaya, proper training is required. [00:30] of Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis. Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia today. Call [redacted phone] to learn more or visit TrimphiaRadio.com. [01:01] . [01:06] This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by PayPal. [01:10] You know a clutch move when you see one? A no-look pass, a buzzer beater, a big steal? Well, imagine if your wallet [01:16] could pull off moves like that. [01:18] That, my friends, is PayPal. Right now, you can find offers from hundreds of brands. [01:22] like Sony, Allbirds, and Viator. [01:25] Save offers before you check out. [01:27] earn unlimited rewards. Plus, you can add those rewards on top of credit card points,

[01:32] Now that. [01:33] is clutch. Download the PayPal app today. [01:36] Save those offers, start scoring rewards. Terms and exclusions apply. See paypal.com/rewards terms, credit card points subject to issuers, [01:46] terms and conditions. [01:48] The Bill Simmons Podcast live on Netflix. [02:18] it is late. It is almost midnight. [02:21] East Coast time. I'm here with, I don't know, are you groggy, Zach Lowe? Not groggy? Medium groggy? After that, not groggy at all. I'm a little too amped, so let's do it. Great. [02:31] By the way, new Rewatchable is coming on Sunday night now. It is from Hell Month, and it's going to be... [02:36] And that rocks the cradle. So get ready for that. And then we're going to go back to a somewhat normal podcast schedule because the Knicks... [02:43] have won. [02:45] The NBA title. It's been 53 years. This is, we'll start with the Knicks, then we got to go to Brunson because I can't believe what I just watched tonight from him. [02:54] I think with the Knicks, other than the fans and the drought being over and the way the city rallied around the team and people traveling to the games and just –

[03:02] how much over and over again they're fighting back to win these games. [03:06] You know, these teams win the title, and then you look back years later, and you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, the... [03:11] 2019 Raptors, what was their gimmick? [03:14] What was their thing? This Knicks team, we're just going to remember it instantly. It's going to be Brunson and comebacks and the Knicks fans. [03:21] It just was an indelible... [03:23] Indelible playoff run 15 and one in the last 16 and [03:27] What was the last team that you remember just grabbing to 2014 Spurs? What was the last one where you're just like, holy shit, I can't believe it came together like that for them? [03:37] In terms of style and everything just clicking into place and then finding a magical, something magical happened to the Knicks at the absolute perfect time. They found the best version of themselves, a better version they had found at almost any point in the regular season, locked it in. [03:54] and sustained it sustained it through different kind of games through foul trouble through slumps through different opponents it's a magical thing that happened to them and i think the 2014 spurs comp is the right one in terms of style like you know that when you see it we were both at those first heat games and it was like it's a wrap like this is this is nirvana like the heat don't even know where the freaking ball is different style but stylistically coming together and having that magic and just like how don't mess with it just sustain it just keep it but in terms of like in [04:24] Delible. [04:25] single season champions like like the ring feels a little extra special for whatever reason I think you go back to the 2011 Mavs for different reasons a team a team that stands out is just a super memorable single season champion I think this team is

[04:40] ironically having taken a player from a different version of the Dallas Mavericks will stand out like that for a ton of different reasons that we'll get into. And one of the things... [04:50] I thought the Spurs had a more talented team. [04:53] And then it was a case of, are they going to figure out they're better than this next team? And then by game five, it's like the Knicks are better than the Spurs. [04:59] I was sitting next to my wife watching it, who was on her phone half the time, and Spurs are up 12, they're up 15, they're up 9. [05:08] And I'm like, the Knicks, they're going to come back. Like, watch what happens with Brunson here. She was like, wow, you have like ESP with this Brunson thing. And I'm like, it's not ESP. This is what he does. You could just see him kind of lurking and waiting. And then he took over the game at the perfect times. Nobody in the Knicks. Who else played well on their team? [05:27] like sort of bridges for half the game, maybe. [05:31] Did anyone else play well? Josh Hart had a couple moments. Like, who? [05:37] I mean... [05:38] This is one of the coolest things about the team is that even in a game, like, first of all, it speaks to their strength as a team that for the second game in a row and almost the third one in the series, the nightmare scenario that we all were talking about before the series, whether you picked the Knicks or not. [05:53] unfolded, which was cat foul trouble, [05:56] Mitchell Robinson, not quite the same guy because of the broken finger, broken, whatever. Huck Portie's got to play all of a sudden and they win these games anyway. And they got, Shama got hurt. Looked like he was done. Brunson turns his ankle. But by the way, twice,

[06:10] ankle injuries, Knicks players down, Spurs get baskets out of it on five on four, right? Like, but the nightmare scenario was getting the Knicks center rotation hold up [06:19] if Towns gets into foul trouble. He's been in foul trouble three games in a row. They won two of them, including these last two. And look, Alvarado didn't have a game tonight, but Jordan Clarkson comes in and makes a basket. Huck Porte actually had a couple moments in the game. Mitchell Robinson, who's been not quite the same guy in the series, has six offensive rebounds, including the free throw offensive rebound. People have [06:42] moments and Alvarado had a moment in game four and that's what makes the champion is like even in this game we're kind of correctly saying it was Brunson just dragging them over the finish line with one tough shot after another guys had [06:56] role players who they needed, they just did little things that helped them just get it over the finish line. Just got to get one more game. And they found a way to get one more game against a team that was again up 16-1. [07:09] In the second quarter of the game. [07:12] 2011 Mavs, a little bit similar, where they had the one great player who was like the [07:17] the major planet that everybody orbited around. But remember that team where like, [07:21] Terry hit the biggest shot of game five. [07:23] There was some, who was it? Deshaun Stevenson was in there, Tyson Chandler, Sean Marion. You go on to Jason Kidd. Everybody had their little moments where they chipped in. 2014 Spurs was the totality. This one was a little different because of Brunson, who we're saving because we're going to talk to him in a second. I think this was the greatest...

[07:45] team building title. [07:48] that we've seen since the two Isaiah Pistons teams. And now even with those, and that was, there's a great book written about those teams called The Franchise, which I think is one of the best NBA books. But even that team, [07:59] had Isaiah, who was, I can't remember if he was second pick of the draft in 1981. So they did have the blue chip guy. The Knicks had the blue chip guy in towns, but they traded for him. [08:10] It was all signs and trades. [08:12] It was one of those things where the team that kind of probably came the closest to this was the Suns in 21. [08:18] where they kind of patched it together. Booker was, I don't even think a top 10 pick and, [08:24] Aiton was their one version of Towns who they drafted. But the degree of difficulty of just putting the team together, making two ballsy moves, right? Firing Tibbs last year, the Towns trade, both of them were... [08:36] we're real, I'm going to double down on a nine kind of moves. And then... [08:43] Some luck with Toronto souring on Brunson. [08:47] I mean, I'm sorry, on Ananobi? [08:50] who they could have kept and they were just like, we've seen enough and they traded them. And I remember being 50-50 at the time being like, eh, I don't know either. I don't know what to make Annanoby. And then Dallas... [09:01] Not locking down Brunson. [09:03] And those are the two big ones. But who do you remember in the last, like this century, [09:08] Who did a better job of putting together a championship team than this? I mean, look, it's all like, you know, how much credit do you give the Heat for clearing the cap space and getting the big three to come, right? There's so many different ways of team building. The Raptors sort of bit by bit by bit, and then they make the big swing for Kawhi, knowing he's probably going to leave. You mentioned the Pistons. I think the 2004 Pistons probably deserve a mention in terms of like. That's a great one. Just like getting Chauncey mid-career, drafting Ben Wallace. Or getting, I'm sorry, getting Ben Wallace.

[09:38] for Ben Wells from Orlando, I think. Trading for Rip Hamilton. And just like finding something that added up and getting Sheed as the last piece in the door. I think that's another one that comes to mind. I mean, there are just so many different ways to do it. But yeah, this is... [09:52] This is a masterpiece, and they bit by bit just targeted guys that they knew were going to play hard. [09:59] We're going to play selflessly. They targeted size around Brunson, which is the one way you could do it and really make it work, protect him from all sides. And then Kat was the upside moonshot at the end where it's like we have this team that's pretty good. There's risk built into this trade contractually and defensively and whatever. [10:16] But his shooting is going to raise our ceiling potential to a point where we've got to actually try it. And it all kind of clicked into place. [10:23] And then the Brunson piece of this. [10:25] So, [10:26] I thought it was interesting he ended on 45 points because I wrote down on my notes during the fourth quarter like – [10:32] I know it's a different scenario. Nobody's Jordan. But it was a similar kind of vibe to that last Jordan game. [10:40] where I think the Bulls scored 89. Jordan had 45 of those. Brunson scored 45. He actually got fouled with eight seconds left, Eddie and Collar. It was an incredible no-call. The ball ends up with Bridges, but that would have pushed him above the 45. But 29 in the second half. [10:56] 15 straight. [10:58] at one point when they really like, Townes was in foul trouble. [11:02] I didn't know where the points were coming from unless he did it. And he's gotten to the point where he's like, he's going to lock in. [11:07] Watch this. And they were tough shots. He's getting the basket in traffic. He's going by Harper and Castle, who were like,

[11:14] I think elite defenders... [11:16] he's getting where in his spots and he was just able to weather the storm for them. And as soon as it was 83, 83, you knew they were going to win the game. But this is this Brunson thing. We were talking about all time Knicks, [11:27] talking about could he be the greatest Nick of all time. I'm not ready to have that conversation yet, but this is one. Well... [11:35] I guess we could, because this was one of the great final performances of [11:39] of all time. So maybe we could. Maybe Clyde Frazier's like, [11:43] I'm willing to step aside, take the reins or Willis Reed. [11:46] it's it's Clyde or him I mean like look I grew up with Ewing and it longevity wise Ewing is going to have numbers that I don't think Brunson can ever touch but like this is 45 points and a finals MVP [11:59] is worth like 15,000 regular season points for the biggest city franchise that hasn't won a title in 53 years. I mean, I don't know what else to say. It was a Jordan-esque performance. [12:08] And one of the things I wrote in my notes was, [12:11] I mean, this is right up your wheelhouse. [12:14] Is Jalen Brunson the greatest underdog story in the history of basketball? Like small guard, second round pick. [12:22] doubted every step of the way, free agency signing, lukewarm to negative reception, and he is now scoring 45 points in a decisive finals game and winning finals MVP. I mean, I don't even know [12:34] I don't I'm trying to think like who else is even in the conversation. [12:38] Yeah, it's [12:39] Well, probably nobody had more points where he was doubted as a great player over the course of his career, even leading up to the finals.

[12:47] Right. Where you're like, [12:49] I picked the Spurs to win the series. And one of the reasons I picked them was because I thought that was just a great matchup for them against Brunson. They had all these guys to throw at them and they'd be behind them. And in the first couple of games, I was right. [13:01] And he saw of them as the series... [13:03] went along, and I'm not sure... [13:05] I'm not sure what he saw. Like, there was this great interview after the game when he could barely speak. It was one of the most authentic... [13:12] athlete interviews we've had in a long time because we're so used now to [13:16] people milking it or not that it seems rehearsed, but people being very aware of how they're being perceived in the moment after they won. And, and he like, he couldn't speak. And then he finally, he, [13:27] I was talking about the fourth quarter about [13:29] I just went back to all the hours I've spent in the gym. [13:33] All those times, all the hard work I put in and I was out there and I was just thinking like, this is like, I'm by myself in the gym, I'm by myself in the gym. And it really did feel that way. [13:41] He was just [13:43] There's been very few guys since I've known you and very few guys since I've followed the league that seem to get better. [13:51] when you need them to get better. It's the rarest trait we have in basketball. And he has it. [13:56] It was incredible. I mean, there have been other great second round picks like Ginobili stands out, but he was never the guy on a team like this. And there have been other smallish guard like Steph Curry in some ways is an underdog story like goes to Davidson. He's a top 10 pick in the draft. And by the time he reaches the finals is like an MVP. [14:14] winner. [14:17] Draymond, Jokic, I guess, was the second round pick, but he's European. Jokic would be one. But we were in on Jokic by the 2018 range. We were like, this guy's got it. He's special. Yeah, I mean, there is not

[14:31] There's nothing like two years. I mean, there's two years before Jalen Brunson wins the title. There's a very loud debate about whether he can be the guy on a championship team. And there was a little bit of that with Jokic because of his defense, but not quite as much. And I just think the small stature, it's just there's nothing I can remember that's like it. And again... [14:52] It's not just that he's the best player on a title team. It's that he just scored 45 points in a game where his team scored 94 points. [15:00] And there just should not have been a way [15:03] for the Knicks to win in San Antonio, [15:06] a game where Carl Anthony Towns has two points left, [15:09] and five turnovers in 23 minutes because of foul trouble. It's like unthinkable that they were able to win a game like that. And no bench points for two hours. It just like, yeah, where's I checked this box score at the half and I was like, oh, my God, they don't have a bench point. And then after that, I mean, look, I'll let you go. I'm sorry. [15:28] No. The only thing I'd add with that, 29 points in the second half, 15 straight at one point. Was it 15 or 16? It was a lot, man. I don't know. I need a Michelob Ultra. It was 15 at the most crucial part of the game when it was like 12, it was nine, and he just... [15:45] kept scoring. And I thought, I wouldn't believe this if I just, I wasn't there, so I didn't see it in person. But I do think sometimes a guy is good enough that you can kind of break the will of a team a little bit. [15:58] And I felt like that happened to the Spurs. And we'll talk about them after the break about...

[16:03] you know, all, all the things you have to take away for them. And do you overreact? Do you underreact? This is just bad timing. But, um, I think you hit a point where, you know, that that guy's scoring when he has the ball, [16:16] Who is your guy who can match this? [16:18] And the issue with the Spurs, as the series went along, is... [16:22] They couldn't figure out who that guy was. They didn't have that one, I've got this guy. It's supposed to be Wemby, but we just saw him in the second half, so he couldn't do it. [16:30] And it wasn't Fox, obviously. [16:33] And the other guys were too young. And it was really, they were turning Dylan Harper, who's 20 years old. I mean, like, that's the story. Like, there's a lot of stories of the series for San Antonio, good, bad, ugly. [16:44] Dylan Harper is the good story of the series for them. This is, in terms of ball control and who has the ball and who starts at point guard next year, Dylan Harper is the answer to that question. This is Dylan Harper's team now to run or at least co-run offensively because he was just up for all of it except the two free throws at the end. And missed a tough layup at the end. So Brunson... [17:07] Isaiah wanted title as a small guy. [17:09] Curry, some people count as a small guy, I guess. He's so unusual, I don't even know who to compare him to, but... [17:16] Yeah, Bob Cousy couldn't do it until he found Bill Russell. [17:19] Jerry West couldn't do it until Will Chamberlain showed up. [17:22] Thank you. [17:23] Chris Paul, Nash, never did it. Oscar Robertson couldn't do it until he played with Kareem. [17:28] Kid and GP needed old guy titles. By the way, most of these guys are like significantly taller than Jalen Brunson. Like Jalen Brunson is listed at 6'2". I've stood next to Jalen Brunson. He's not 6'2". I feel like he's 5'11", I would give him.

[17:41] But never wore down. And, you know, this is such an anomaly. [17:47] To have a guy built like him. [17:49] who had the kind of pressure that he had on him all during the playoffs. [17:53] And then on top of it, the box score is not going to show that this was Castle and Harper and Champagny and Vassell with Wemby behind them. [18:02] for a lot of these points, just kind of solving them. I thought the Spurs half court, especially in the first half of game four, it was like, oh, they've really figured this out. [18:11] They're not giving up fast break points to the Knicks anymore. They're starting to solve the Knicks now. [18:16] and then Brunson flipped it over the next three halves. Well, I mean, look, [18:20] The statistics will say [18:22] Well, they only solved it to a little bit of degree because the final offensive rating for the series was Knicks 110, Spurs 107.5. And I'm pretty sure 110 would have ranked last or close to last in the regular season. But here's the thing. [18:36] you are in game 100-whatever of your season. [18:39] you are facing a top two defense in the NBA and the best defensive player in the NBA, the unanimous defensive player of the year winner who has nothing to do, but game plan for your team under the highest possible pressure with an officiating regime. That is going to let everyone play super physically except Carl Anthony towns, I guess they sure did. And all you got to do in that, in that, [19:01] What all that solving amounts to in that scenario is, [19:05] is scoring enough to win. And they scored enough to win... [19:08] over and over and over against a defense that was giving them

[19:11] Different kind of looks, Wembees in different places, different styles. They solved it enough. [19:16] to just eke it over the finish line. And that's enough. That's all that it took. Like 110 offensive rating in those circumstances. Like, I'll take it. Good enough. [19:24] 2,600 minutes for Brunson during the season. Missed eight games. [19:29] playoffs over 700. So he's at like 3,400 minutes for the season and felt like he was gaining strength [19:35] Um, there's something to be said. We've talked about a lot. I always talk about it with the draft. It's going to be really interesting in this draft that's coming up because one of these point guards is going to fall. [19:45] and he'll immediately have the chip on the shoulder guy. Just like the top four, whoever goes fourth, that guy's going to have the chip on the shoulder. Brunson, to be doubted over and over again, [19:54] I think now he's the 15th guy ever to win a high school championship, a college championship, and an NBA title. [20:00] And some of the guys that did it are like, [20:02] Kareem. I was going to say, Kareem is the standard bearer of that. It's people like that. [20:08] And just even when... [20:11] He was one of the guys in that draft when he went [20:15] in the second round. I was like, what are we doing? We just watched him in college. He's clearly a rotation guy, but he just over and over again kept shoving it in the doubters' faces. We're going to take a break, and there's so much more to discuss. We haven't even hit 80% of my topics yet. I can't wait. I hope you drank some coffee. I did. I drank 8 p.m. coffee, which is dangerous on a lot of levels. It's like doing cocaine. I'm ready. All right, take a break.

[20:42] This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, the official beer partner of the NBA. [20:48] My favorite NBA Finals moment ever. Well, I have two. [20:52] One was when I was six years old and I went to the famous triple overtime game in 1976, Boston versus Phoenix that the Celtics won and became, I still think, the most famous NBA game of all time. It's either that or one of the Jordan games. [21:06] I like to claim it as the most famous since I was there. But the other one was Game 5, 1984 Finals, 2-2, Lakers, Celtics, [21:14] And it is so hot in the Boston Garden. [21:17] that people are passing out in the stands, everyone's sweating all over the place, the Lakers are taking oxygen on the bench, and... [21:24] Larry Bird. [21:25] I think he had 35 points. [21:28] 20 rebounds was just awesome and won the game, gave them the 3-2 lead. They won in seven. And that is my favorite finals game ever. There's a lot of great moments. I was lucky to be there, by the way. There's a lot of great moments in the court, but the best ones are served cold, just like Michelob Ultra right here. A superior light beer that's only 95 calories. Yeah, 95 calories. Even better. [21:50] They're getting people closer to the game with a chance to win tickets, custom merch, [21:53] and much more. [21:55] Miklova Ultras appears worth playing for. Enter now. [21:58] at michlobaltra.com slash courtside. [22:02] Michelob Ultra Quartzide 25-26, no purchase necessary, open to U.S. Residents 21+, begins on October 1st, 2025, ends on June 30th, 2026. Multiple entry periods, see official rules at MichelobUltra.com slash Quartzide.

[22:16] for free entry, entry deadlines and prizes and details. [22:20] Now it's time for our With the Assist segment, and it's presented by State Farm. [22:26] On the court, no one does it alone. The biggest moments often come. [22:29] from teammates working together, which is my favorite kind of basketball. I'm not a nice little ball guy. One player setting up the other at just the right time. This season, the NBA has given us plenty of duos, [22:39] who made that connection. [22:40] look effortless. Normally you would say, [22:43] murray and yokich for this because i think they they brought the best out of each other and won the 23 title together this year [22:50] I think my favorite combo has probably been Castle and Wemby on those – [22:55] those hard rolls that Wemby does when Castles, out of anyone on the Spurs, I think is the best at putting it right near the basket for him. And he got to the point there in the finals where, [23:03] the Knicks just started shoving Wemby as he was going for the alley-oop, um, and just taking the non-shooting foul for it. And I'm probably gonna have to change the rules, but, uh, I like the way Castle and Wemby work together. And I think that's, [23:15] That's my pick for favorite up and coming combo. Maybe they could be like Jokic and Murray someday, just like on the court. It helps to know someone has your back, [23:24] when the most unexpected thing might happen. That's where State Farm comes in. They've got easy to use digital tools like the State Farm app, which is excellent. And neighborhood State Farm agents when you wanna talk. [23:34] to a real [23:35] human being. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer availability and eligibility. [23:44] vary by state. I got a text from my friend Mark Cimino.

[23:50] who just said, incredible, my life has changed. [23:54] And I think... [23:55] I went through this as a Red Sox fan, obviously, in 2004. You're going to go through it when Croatia wins the World Cup in six weeks. That's a long shot. [24:06] you really do feel like your life has changed. I mean, I wrote a whole book about it. You feel like there's a piece that comes over it [24:14] That the fear when you get [24:16] older that you're just going to die and never see it or that your parents are going to die and they're never going to see it or your older buddy or your uncle. When the moment happens, you start thinking about all of these things. [24:29] Moments you've had in life, all these people you know, and there's just there's no experience like it. But the problem is you have to really suffer and suffer for your entire life. And that's what makes it special, unfortunately. But this is this is where we are at the Knicks fans. What was the best text you got? [24:47] I'm just getting people at the game and mostly just mostly just gibberish. Yeah. Sam Morrill, a great standout comedian, just texted me, dude. [24:56] Dude, what a team, what someone else, unreal. Just stuff. It's just, it's just an expansion to set up beside themselves. [25:03] Just become incoherent. I'm sure New York City is going to be incredible tonight. [25:07] I was thinking... [25:08] What's the next, who replaces them now as our really sad, pathetic drought team with generations of fans? It's probably Phoenix, right? I'll give you the candidates. Phoenix, Utah, Clippers, Sacramento, Atlanta.

[25:23] You have India and the Nets to win ABA titles. You have the Blazers that haven't won since 77. [25:29] You have Washington, 78, Philly, 83. And then you have Charlotte, New Orleans, and Memphis that don't have the giant fan base to pull this off. So who is it? Did you mention Minnesota? [25:38] Oh, and Minnesota's in there too. I guess Minnesota... They have great fans. Yeah, and they also haven't won a title of any kind since the 91 Twins, I don't think. [25:48] And they got jobbed in the WNBA finals two springs ago, which I still remember you, Minnesota. Yeah, Minnesota's up there. I would say Phoenix, though. [25:59] who has just been in the mix decade after decade after decade, and has had some really tough beats and some really great players, and it just never happened. [26:08] But they also don't have the amount of fans the Knicks have. [26:12] Yeah, that's the thing. There's no team. I mean, really, only the Lakers could travel like this, and I don't even think Lakers fans would travel to quite this extent. I agree. Particularly in the finals where they're traveling far. Of those teams you mentioned, again, no one has the fan base. This is a small market team. I think Utah... [26:31] Deserves a little bit of a hearing because like the Knicks, they had these iconic players that were just stopped by Jordan over and over again, right? Like are not twice in the finals, but just couldn't get over the hump. And they were largely very good for a long time. They've obviously had a down few years as they've tanked now. I think I might pick them. [26:50] I wish the Clippers had more fans because that's a great one because that goes back as long. They were an expansion team. I think right around when Phoenix came in the league. And then the Kings. I just know. Well, but they were Cincinnati. That's true. Kansas City slash Omaha. That's true.

[27:06] I don't think they've won since they were Rochester in the early 50s was the last one for them. [27:12] Atlanta would be a fun one. But yeah, we'll never see anything like this in the NBA game. Because when the Red Sox won, we still had the Cubs and the Indians on deck in this case. [27:23] No. All right. Uh, [27:25] Do you have more Nick stuff or do you want to move to the Spurs here? I, [27:29] Go in more on the Knicks if you have anything else you want to hit. I'm just always big on... [27:36] You just got to... [27:37] Let it sink in. You got to luxuriate in the team that just won. This is New York City, man. This is like... [27:45] This is New York freaking city. [27:47] And this is a team... [27:50] that unites the city where I lived for 20 years. And I wish I lived there still now, [27:56] Um, [27:57] Like not, there's no other, not even the Yankees. I don't think unite the city like this because there's too many Mets fans. The Knicks are the city's team. Apologies to Brooklyn. It's just true. Um, [28:07] And it's been on fire. I mean, I was there all this week for games three and four, staying in a hotel the whole time. The city is like absolutely... [28:16] on fire. It could not be understated how crazy this is. And yes, there have been some misbehaving fans, deplorable stuff. That happens in every city. Don't let that represent what's going on in the West Village and Williamsburg and all these places where there are watch parties. It's an absolutely incredible moment in New York City. My wife and I are sitting here lamenting that we no longer live there and that we can't go outside. I just want to go outside. I'm not even a Knicks fan.

[28:46] want to go outside and see something and in the burbs you go outside and you see fucking squirrels and deer running around and there's no one honking their cars there's nothing it's just incredible and like you can't say enough about brunson you can't say enough about how they built the team the josh hart trade just sort of sneaks under the radar all the time is like how they got josh hart and then you know brunson taking less money to facilitate everything just everything clicked into place and even a guy like shamit who couldn't miss [29:13] for six weeks, basically. Right. Just scrap heap guy. And I think, like, [29:19] Again, this is a historical thing, but this is up your alley. I tried to find a comp for them. [29:25] In terms of like, [29:26] you probably saw this on Instagram, like good, right? There were a very good regular season team, 53 wins. That's like low for a champion. Uh, then that's, and then to go from that to, [29:38] I'm looking at the finals number now. [29:40] 16-3. [29:42] With a net rating of plus 15.4. [29:45] I mean, that's, I think, the greatest net rating in the history of the playoffs for a championship team. [29:51] It's up there with like, it's above... [29:54] not win-loss-wise, but it's 17 Warriors, it's 96 Bulls. It's all the greatest teams ever are the only ones that are in that universe of [30:03] So few losses and such a big point differential. [30:06] They just turned into... [30:08] an absolute bulldozer and i don't want it what i don't want to hear and i've seen a little bit of this as well i didn't have to play boston i didn't have to play oklahoma city stop boston happens every year boston got exposed by philly why are we sitting here thinking boston was this great juggernaut that was going to really like push the knicks i think they would have pushed the knicks harder than philly because philly was injured but they got exposed san antonio beat oklahoma city oklahoma city was banged up and the knicks just beat them four out of five times like just give them just give them the credit it's an all-time dominant postseason run

[30:37] And it puts them in a position where [30:39] And this is more in your wheelhouse than mine. [30:41] I don't really think there's a single season team quite like this ever in the NBA who was good and then turned into whatever the hell this is. [30:53] I can't think of one either. [30:55] I think what would, [30:57] The amazing thing to me, it was like Doc Rivers texted me during the fourth quarter, and he was just like, this is a replay of all the other finals games. [31:05] And I was like, you're right. Because the Knicks are almost like playing karaoke of the other games that they've had. Where it's just like, oh, they're going to do the part where they're going to fall behind by 13. It's like watching those CSI episodes where... [31:19] You're like, oh, the 40-minute mark. Now I bet this guy, now we're going to find out maybe he actually knew the victim. And that's what they did over and over again. I'm with you. [31:28] First of all, you know I hate the you never played anybody thing. You can only play who's in front of you. [31:33] Second, San Antonio is minus 200 to win the minus 190 to win the series. And we were we were all saying during the last round. [31:41] OKC San Antonio is going to decide the finals. [31:44] I certainly felt that way. And we were an old son. We me on that. Don't we me on that one. I felt that way. [31:51] A lot of people felt that way. We were all like the finals going to go through the West. I thought of the five best teams. The Knicks were the only good East team. And I think Denver and Minnesota were up there with San Antonio. I think those were the five best teams in the league. Now, they only played one, but I don't hold them against them. And I thought San Antonio was an awesome team. That was one of the scariest defensive teams ever.

[32:12] we've had in a finals in the last 20 years. They turned Philly and Cleveland into freaking mush. Like, just get out of here. You don't even belong in the same league as us. And, like, those were teams that fought tooth and nail to beat other good teams in the Eastern Conference, including the top seed, including a popular finals pick. And the Knicks just squashed them, humiliated them, embarrassed them out of the playoffs. And it was like, you don't even belong on the same floor with us. Go home, James Harden. [32:42] Just seeking right in. Guns loaded. [32:47] Well, I'll tell you this to credit the Knicks. [32:51] They are changing. I think they are lighting a little fire on some of the East teams. [32:56] Because this is sustainable for the Knicks, I think, for... [33:00] at least the next two years. [33:02] And if you're boss, then you have to change how you play, which is basically... [33:06] what Stephen said at the press conference right after the season ended, [33:10] We can't play this way anymore. [33:11] We have to be more inside out. [33:14] The Knicks have the ability to play inside out, [33:17] to hit threes, [33:18] But Brunson, in a lot of ways, became their inside-outside guy. He was the guy getting all the points in the paint, a little bit of bridges, a little bit [33:25] A little bit of Towns who was... [33:27] terrible, um, [33:29] That was Minnesota Towns today. [33:31] Now, they didn't get the friendliest whistle ever, but it didn't matter. I will say... [33:36] Three times in two games... [33:38] A Wemben Yama foul was reviewed and turned into a Townsfell.

[33:43] I didn't like the first two of them, which one was in game four. And the first one tonight... [33:49] I did not understand it all. [33:51] When Maniyama gets called for a foul, kind of karate chops Towns, and then Towns hooks him. But the chop comes first, which is like— Proceeds to the foul, yeah. And it precedes the hook, and you go back and review it. [34:02] Can you not just review that and say, it's a no call. We're wiping it away. Successful challenge. Now to foul on Wembenyama. I got to make it a foul on Towns. I thought he got a raw whistle in these last two games. And we have not even gotten to the fact that we are, again, for the second straight game, the league is going to be spared the number one talking point between games five and six being is Wembenyama going to be suspended for game six because of a flagrant foul review on the landing spot thing. I mean, they're spared this whole officiating discussion because the Knicks saved their ass on it. [34:31] I had that in my notes. He would have gotten suspended. [34:34] I saw all this conspiracy. Oh, they'll never suspend him. They'll find a way around it. He would have gotten suspended. I think he would 100% would have gotten suspended. Between them not upgrading the mush of Jalen Brunson to a flagrant, which I don't understand what their reasoning was for that, and the outcry of that. I agree with you. I think he was going to get suspended for Game 6. Now, thankfully, we don't have to live in a world where the Knicks win Game 6 with no Wemby and everything's a little, not tainted, but just feels a little like we didn't get the send-off that we should have gotten. Yeah. [35:03] There were a lot of calls I didn't like against the Knicks today. It should be mentioned. It was 28-19 Knicks free throw advantage in that game. Yeah. [35:12] I felt like they got hosed on six or seven calls. I thought the...

[35:17] Not calling the foul on Brunson. [35:20] I mean, when Brunson's trying to dribble the clock out with 10 seconds left waiting for them to foul him, gets hacked. There's three refs there. [35:27] All of them miss it and the ball goes to Bridges. [35:30] That just could have been a steal the other way for the game-tying layup, and we would have been like, oh, let's look at the replay. [35:36] Daniel-san, karate chopping Brunson. That was terrible. I can't believe... [35:41] I can't believe they missed Wemby going under Bretton's feet. They never missed that call ever. [35:46] They make that call 100 times out of 100 during this season. There's three refs. [35:51] None of them missed the call. He fell down. It was terrible. And I don't know how you don't review that later. [35:57] They could review it later, but it would just have been between games. It's funny. Or it's a timeout, you can't review it? I don't know. When I first watched it naked eye, I actually didn't. I saw Brunson kick his leg out a little bit, and I thought, okay, maybe that's what they saw. And then on the replay, it's much more clear that that should have been. [36:17] a foul and a flag was out and it was just not called and then there was like the og and ob phantom loose ball foul after a scramble rebound very late in the game we're like i'm not even sure what what scott foster was looking at but look the knicks and you can sit here and do the foul the foul count and the free throw count and whatever it's like the fouls on towns are so pivotal and so he is such a bedrock in terms of how the knicks play and be coming into this game [36:43] the Knicks were plus 48 with towns on the floor and minus 40 with towns off the floor that like, I don't really care if the rest of the calls are even or lean to the,

[36:52] the Knicks favor because those calls by themselves are so pivotal to [36:57] And three times in two games... [36:59] Not only is a Wembenyama foul erased, it's then turned into [37:03] a foul on Towns and I thought two of the three were bad calls and just like wipe it away, no call it. The third one was a clear foul when he shoved [37:10] Yes. We shoved Wimbanyama into... [37:13] Knicks player. We were texting near the end of halftime and I was texting you that I thought the Knicks were going to win, which I was texting you all day. [37:21] And you texted back, hold on, I want to see what happens with these three towns fouls. And like instantaneously by the time you got the text. Yeah, I got the text and he was fouling somebody. Foster had that awful call on OG, the fifth foul. [37:36] It was Brunson had just made a layup. It was 83-83. [37:40] OG had that weird loose ball call. And I wrote down in my notes at that point, it was starting to give me flashbacks to... [37:47] Time to bring a Celtics team into this. Game five, 2008 finals. [37:52] South's up three, one. [37:54] It's in LA. It's 232. [37:57] my dad and I are in the stands. We think the Celts are going to win. And in the second half, the Celts just got hosed. It was the game where Ray Allen fouled out. [38:07] hit 5,000 the second half. Paul Pierce had 5,000 the second half. And I was like, I feel like we're reliving that, where they're just going to take OG and Towns out of this game. And as it turned out, [38:17] It didn't matter because Jalen Brunson just could not be stopped for a long, long time. And then

[38:22] Really on San Antonio's side, nothing happened. But I'm looking at guys I bolded. [38:27] down the stretch. OG had a dunk. Brunson had a floater. Mitch had that offensive rebound. OG had a free throw. Bridges had free throw. All the guys kind of chipped in. A lot of nervy free throws at the end for both teams. By the way, I get it. I mean, maybe it was a nerd. Sometimes you just miss, but boy, if you put me at the line right there, I might pee my pants and go 0 for 2 on two air balls and run off the court, never to be seen again. [38:50] The one I was positive of was Harper missing the first one when they were down three with like eight seconds left. [38:56] I feel like the guy misses that [38:58] 90% of the time down the stretch. We had a... [39:01] A couple of big... [39:02] at least two big Josh Hart shots in the fourth quarter. [39:06] Want to shout out? He's kind of their no-no-yes guy. [39:10] But yeah, so... [39:11] When you look at the other Knicks, OG goes... [39:14] Um, [39:15] Three of 11. [39:17] Yeah, but I'm just going big picture. You had him as finals MVP after game four, which I thought was aggressive. [39:24] I think it was like 60-40 because Brunson is the engine, right? You know my stance. The best guy to me, unless he's awful, has to get it. After this game, there were just no questions about it. But look, again... [39:41] Now that it's over, [39:43] Is the Ananobi tip the greatest play in the history of Knicks basketball? [39:49] I mean, greatest in history of Knicks basketball. It's one of the greatest plays in the history of basketball. But it's...

[39:55] I think it's the discussion would be of basketball for me, for the professional basketball NBA. [40:01] Is it one of the 10 best, most important plays in the history of the league? [40:04] And I think you could argue that it was. Now you're saying like non-game seven versus game seven. No, we were. So it's like two categories. Well, no, we were. I sent you a text from my buddy, Doug, who's a genius. And he was a math genius. And he was asking to me, like, do you think the Ananobi tip is the single biggest non-game seven swing play in terms of finals odds? And then he showed me his math. [40:28] about how much it swung finals odds. [40:31] And he said, give me some other candidates. And the only one I gave him a bunch. And the only one that he mathematically said was as close to that big of an odd swing was Robert Ory shot in game five in 2005. Pistons Spurs, which turned it when she left them open. Yeah, which turned a two point Pistons lead into a one point Spurs win. But yeah, I mean, like it's it's up there and just it's just. [40:56] It's just made for cinema. He's flying through the air, [41:01] above everybody else, sprinting in with the kind of urgency that is like, [41:05] I will die to win this game and gets his hand on it perfectly softly. Nobody else touches it. Only him. Only he's high enough to get it. And it's, you know, it's going in as soon as he hits it. It's not, it's, he's got, he's got a preposterous level of touch. [41:20] and control on it. [41:22] that you, as soon as I was there, I was watching it. I was standing up in awe. It's like, as soon as I saw him running, I was like, well, my guy is going to tip this thing. And,

[41:30] So I did the pod right afterwards and then was kept watching that whole sequence over and over again the next morning. I think it's one of the craziest fluke. It might even be a crazier fluke, but also great play than the Ray Allen shot. [41:46] Because remember the Ray Allen shot? [41:48] All the guys... [41:50] What was it that led to the layup? Oh, no, it was the LeBron three before the Royale on shot. [41:56] when all five Spurs had a chance for the rebound, and it's like, [42:00] You could do this a thousand times and this might be the one time where you don't get the rebound. Not to mention that Ray Allen was the guy in the corner who had practiced the backpedaling. Like all those things that happen, it's like one in a million that that team, that moment. [42:14] So the next. [42:15] You have to have the Spurs fucking up. [42:19] Like the defensive coverage. Did you see that camera from behind the basket of them kind of not knowing who to cover? I did. And then it ends up, [42:26] And I think that was legitimate where they kind of did, oh, I thought, oh, they're playing him. And they're kind of scrambling right before. And Wemby ends up on Brunson, which I can't imagine. [42:36] Do you think that was the intention at all for him to be 30 feet from the basket? They're up one. [42:42] I don't think so. [42:45] That said, I don't think there was enough scrutiny or just curious questioning of, [42:50] Did you need to double team Jalen Brunson with Victor? I mean, I think that was a in all the attention on the Fox blunder that preceded that, which is all very deserved. And I finally I've seen some defenses of that decision by Fox, which to me are nonsensical. We can talk about that if you want. But I think I don't think that and I don't know who called for the double. I assume the coaches yelled for him to go do it. I'm like, it's a.

[43:13] It's the unanimous defensive player of the year. [43:15] There's four seconds left in the game. He's just going to take a three. I don't know what you're panicking about. Also, you have great defenders. You don't need Wemby to come out. If anything, you have to be worried about some sort of tip. [43:28] So anyway, Wemby comes out. That's lucky break number one. [43:31] Looking back, number two, Brunson shoots it fast. [43:34] And it has to hit the front of the rim and ricochet right toward where OG's going, right? And OG's jumping, jumps seven feet full speed. [43:43] But you still need the ball to ricochet. If it hits the back of the rim, he's by it. He might be able to get it with his left thing, but it almost has to bounce the way it is. [43:52] And then for him to just kind of tap it back the way he did – [43:56] I think that's like a one in 100,000 play, those three things all together. Not to mention, Wemby could have blocked the Brunson shot. [44:03] The only thing is Towns was right there for the tip in of the Brunson of the OG tip. [44:08] And I wonder if he would have tipped it in. See if that, and then you also have [44:13] the Spurs having Harper inbound the pass at the end on a play that would have worked. [44:18] and Towns tips it, and like, [44:21] Why wasn't Wemby inbounding that? [44:23] Because you're using him as a decoy for the play? The lob threat, right. How about Cornette? Could Cornette not throw? Why do you have somebody who's six inches shorter than the guy guarding him? Not to mention, Towns brings the guys over, the fans. [44:37] to kind of crowd Harper, which I've never seen in a modern NBA game. [44:41] in the last 30 years, but I thought that was crazy too. You could do a documentary about the last 10 minutes of that, 10 seconds of that game. Oh my, you sure could. Because then the Fox decision, like you could, it's like an hour of analysis.

[44:54] The Fox decision... [44:57] I saw a couple of analytics people being like, [45:01] This is unfair criticism. It's a totally analytically sound decision. Here's the math of like, well, he could put him up three of this and that. The reason why it was a bad decision, and I don't know if he could have killed as much clock as people think, because OG was coming to foul him real fast. But the reason why... [45:16] It's. [45:17] a bad decision despite whatever analytics you can conjure about it is [45:21] Even if he just makes one out of two free throws, which is part of the analytical argument for why it's not a horrible decision. Well, he could miss free throw. He could miss both free throws and blah, blah, blah. Expected points for this and that. Then you're up two. And the tip does not lose you the game. You still have a chance to win it in overtime. There's just such an enormous... One point is such an enormous difference that if that's all you get, it still matters. Zero is what you can't get. And he did pretty much the only thing... [45:49] that put zero in a probable position to happen. And that was challenging. And it'll be at the rim and lose. [45:56] I don't know why he did it. [45:58] I don't know why he wanted to challenge Ananobi. I don't know how he couldn't have scored on the left side of the basket when he's left-handed. [46:05] But the OG block slash tip [46:08] So, [46:09] I was watching, I watched the end of Bucs-Suns game five to try to remember the Drew play and the sequence of, and the Bucs are up like 10. [46:18] with three minutes left, they kind of blow the game. [46:21] Leading to Booker. [46:22] who had been hot in that game,

[46:24] with a chance to win. [46:26] And Drew does the strip, comes back down. [46:29] and throws that crazy alley-oop to Giannis, who's almost by the rim and dunks it anyway. [46:35] And I was thinking like if he hadn't, if he had fucked up that Al Youp or Giannis, whatever, like he would have gotten all the same De'Aaron Fox criticism. But guess what? It worked. [46:43] And if Fox had scored... [46:45] to go up three, we would have been like, great play by Fox. Um, [46:49] I don't think we would have. I think we would have been like, ooh, that was risky. He's lucky. Risky, great play by Fox. Yeah. I was watching the 1990 Game 2 Finals, Pistons Blazers. Of course you were. Why wouldn't you be watching that? Well, it got served to me on Twitter because apparently I was watching last second plays and this popped up. But this was the Danny Young game. [47:09] Remember this? No, I don't think so. But I'll remember when you described to me. Which finals was it? Blazers? Pistons, Blazers. That's the one where the Pistons went all the games in Portland. Pistons are up one. [47:22] Um, [47:24] They inbound it. [47:25] They break the press. [47:28] For some reason, Gerald Henderson decides to score a layup with like three seconds left instead of just dribbling out the clock. There's no Blazers. All the Blazers are up trying to steal it. [47:36] The Blazers inbound it, and Danny Young just gets a wide open three, but it's like a split second after the buzzer. And it was kind of as dumb as the Fox play. [47:44] But it didn't... [47:45] My point is, [47:47] Guys have brain farted like this over and over again in the playoffs. These guys are tired. The amount of energy it takes to play these games is astonishing and unimaginable to regular people. And it affects your brain a little bit. And also, you're built.

[48:03] with such confidence and you're such an elite athlete that he justifiably thinks I'm quick enough to get this shot onto the backboard before he gets to it and he didn't and like it's understandable it's like a very explainable brain fart but a disastrous brain fart nonetheless. You know what though? [48:19] It's unexplainable as the point guard. The point guard's the smartest guy on the team, allegedly. He's the game manager. He's the guy who, he's the quarterback. He's the guy who makes the right decisions, right? [48:28] Cam Johnson, I saw on Tommy's pod, was defending Darren Fox. He was just like, you guys don't understand how fast everything goes when you're playing basketball. And it's like, [48:37] They get a steal. The ball pumps out. It's not like you have a lot of time to process with that. First, he's got to chase the ball. [48:43] He's in real time measuring O.G. behind him, but... [48:47] I guess my thing is [48:50] I don't think the Spurs would have won this series anyway, regardless of that play. [48:55] because I think I really felt like they started to get exposed as the series get along. Look at what happened today. They lost by four. But how many guys on the Spurs did you trust by midway through game five? We lost all our confidence in Fox. Their entire bench was out. Cornette was unplayable. They couldn't really play Carter Bryant. [49:14] Calvin Johnson, six minute of the year, was just doing nothing. [49:18] Um, [49:19] you go on down the line, it's like, I don't, I can't find six guys I trust on this team. Not to mention the big fundamental issue with them was they got to give the car keys to Harper and they just wouldn't do it. They were, [49:30] hesitant to do that and I think that was one of the things that cost them the series well it is interesting for a team that was ahead of schedule and has a ton to be proud of and is like two boneheaded plays away from this series probably still going on into game six

[49:44] it does feel like there's a surprising amount of potential fallout in San Antonio, just in terms of maybe not immediate, but just like the Fox question is arriving maybe faster than they thought it might. I would say it's arrived. I think, I think people are getting off the train. Well, I, I mean, I said, uh, after game four that I, [50:05] I was having lunch with an agent in New York and we were talking about like, cause Harper has been so sensational. [50:10] And that's part of the Fox question, too, is Harper. [50:13] And he said, you know, how soon do you think like, [50:16] the Spurs start thinking about or taking calls or listening or whatever. And I said, look, it feels early. It feels early. [50:23] Because his extension doesn't even kick in yet. And they just made the finals and they're going to have to lick their wounds if they lose this series. [50:29] But that contract is so big and so long that if a team called me this offseason and just gave me a fair-ish offer for it, we've got to have a meeting about it because... [50:40] This was bad, and he's got a high ankle sprain, but this series was really bad in every possible way, pretty much. And Harper... [50:48] was just sensational. [50:50] And you could argue like we've almost already gotten what we hope to get out of Fox, which is like veteran mentorship, a long playoff run that didn't quite get all the way. And like I like now I just got like four more years on a huge extension coming up. I don't know. It's it's that's fallout. [51:07] Keldon Johnson's a free agent. That's fallout. Um, just completely fell apart in the finals and didn't have a great playoffs overall. Um,

[51:16] He had a bad playoffs. It's going to be interesting. Well, the thing with Fox... [51:21] So for people listening who don't know the size of the contract, maybe take a seat, even if you're sitting. It's four years, 221. [51:29] And I had a bunch of people over the last couple of days texting me, like just people that aren't doing what we do for a living, but just basketball fans. Like, so they're going to trade Fox. Where's he going to go? [51:37] Go through the teams. It's hard to find four teams that, [51:42] that need an expensive point guard who, like, you'd be like, oh, Orlando, he'd be good there. Well, cool. Orlando's already, like, way over the tacks. They're going to be a second apron team. And they're not trading Franz Wagner for Darren Fox. I'm sorry. Right? Right? There's not. That one goes into the David Stern veto chamber. Yeah, that's like the league steps in. What they're looking at is something like Minnesota. [52:05] wondering if they'll take the last year Julius Randall's deal and DiFincenzo who has a torn Achilles. [52:11] Um, [52:12] I honestly think that's what they're looking at for that contract. I think you're looking at, can we get expirings back? [52:19] Um, [52:21] And we're probably getting the one or two worst guys in the trade. We might have to throw a pick in it. [52:27] Atlanta is interesting because they're going to have cap space. [52:31] need a point guard and maybe have like the Kispert contract and Risa Shea and [52:36] But I couldn't find a deal that I really liked. So I think he's going to be on San Antonio next year. That's what I meant by fair-ish in terms of like, if it's like neutral to us and we don't have to give up a pick, like I got to at least have a meeting about it. But then you go through the teams. And of course, irony of all ironies, a team that absolutely could use an expensive, good point guard and does desperate things all the time is the Sacramento Kings. And I feel like that's probably not going to happen. Yeah, definitely not happen. Well, here's the other problem with Fox.

[53:04] like as a trade asset, [53:06] This draft is like legendary for how many point guards are in it. And the Kings are in that range. Five guys who could potentially be starting as point guards, not to mention like some of the guys that have come in the last two years. So. [53:18] I think he's going to be on the team, and I don't really know. [53:21] I don't know how they get out of that one. The only thing I threw out, and I don't really see the exact scenario for it, but you mentioned Atlanta. [53:31] Is there a team that gets Giannis? [53:34] That has to trade so much for him that is like, all right, we just need another good player in the door. And this is guys gettable and he fits well like that. But I even that is a hard deal to construct. [53:45] There was one that caught my attention as I was flying through the SpotTrack teams. [53:51] John Morant. [53:54] He's in that same sort of boat, right? [53:58] And if you're the Spurs, you just basically, that's all I could think. Oh, no, the Spurs are not trading for John Morant. No, but you get him, and then you try to flip him, and it's basically a three-team deal. [54:09] I don't think that's happening. This episode is brought to you by Boris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Boris Head just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means planning your whole day around it. [54:26] Presenting the Friars Turkey Breast only from Boar's Head. [54:30] Backyard tradition now available behind the counter. [54:32] Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Boreshead, committed to craft since 1905.

[54:41] This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. [54:43] Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. [54:50] New Whole Foods Market Peach Apricot Rose Italian Soda. [54:55] Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango yuzu chantilly cake. [55:01] But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sales signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. [55:20] Somewhere out there is a Chevy truck. And the person who drives it, well, that's a Chevy person. You probably know one. Your buddy. Your sister. Ones who always show up. They're the first to rise, the last to leave. They always have that little extra something. And maybe you've got it too. Chevrolet. Together let's drive. Visit chevy.com slash trucks to explore the lineup. [55:48] Um. [55:49] So the Spurs... [55:51] have two of the worst finals losses this century. [55:55] in less than a week. [55:56] including... I almost said which two. I mean, they just all felt so... Yeah, the one today was like a walk in the park compared to some of the other ones. [56:05] Um, they, they, [56:07] I did a thing about [56:09] after game two about how

[56:12] They've had... [56:13] and this is before game four, how they had had their five worst playoff losses or worse than anyone else's five worst playoff losses. [56:20] And then they added a sixth one to that. [56:24] I don't know where you start with them when you're thinking about the season because they're a little like the Patriots win the Super Bowl. Whereas after the Super Bowl and the Patriots got killed... [56:34] I almost wish they had it made the Super Bowl. [56:36] It's like we should have been better off losing the AFC title game. If the Spurs just lose an OKC in game seven, [56:43] We have no questions. We're like, ah, they're too young. OKC's really good. That's the way it worked out. [56:48] But now it opens up a whole bunch of stuff. We've almost gotten to the hour mark without talking about them yet. [56:53] But this was an incredibly disappointing Wemby series. [56:57] It just was. But for future of the league, face of the league, all that stuff, this was – [57:02] I think a catastrophe for all those storylines. It was. I think that's a little strong. [57:06] Um, [57:07] Yeah, we're passing the torch from Jordan to LeBron to Wemby, and I'm included. I have my hand pushing it toward him. [57:14] And he just wasn't nearly good enough or impactful enough. He wasn't. So I disagree with you in two senses. I don't think he was catastrophically bad. I think he was a little disappointing. Defensively, I think he was, like tonight, he was fantastic for two and a half quarters defensively, and I think faded a little bit at the end. He averaged 26 a game. [57:32] On 42% shooting, 27% on threes. [57:36] 11 rebounds, three and a half blocks. [57:39] I agree in the aggregate. It's, it's, it's disappointing. And we can talk about why and what parts of his game kind of faded in and out of some of these games. Like tonight, for instance, I thought in the first half, he was just not rolling to the rim enough. It was just settling for pops and pop twos and drives that were never going to work in this series. And for some reason, just,

[57:57] doesn't yet have [57:59] the confidence or the consistency and just like the simple poor Zingas shot where all else fails. I just catch the ball at 15 feet face up and shoot over you. Like that should just be a much bigger part of his diet than it is. He's passing them up. Especially the 18 footers. But I had this argument with people throughout the finals. I think just story wise, narrative wise, I, [58:20] This is the best. This is a better outcome for the league. The Knicks win. [58:24] They end the 53-year drought. [58:27] Right. Total jubilation. [58:30] in New York City, [58:31] history all the alums are there ewing's there the ghosts are exercise all that and wendy gets some battle scars and gets embarrassed a little bit in some big moments and has to go back and like it's it was it felt too soon for him to already conquer the league and now we get an off season of like reckoning with the turnover in game two reckoning with shooting 42 percent seven of 19 i think tonight and like like some scars some some stuff to build on missed free throws in game uh in game four [59:00] in New York. I just think it's like a cool, not cooler, but just like certainly a more literary arc, uh, than if he had just sort of walked into that walk to just like, I'm already the best. We're already champions, New York, you lose again. [59:13] To be fair, I wasn't saying his play was catastrophic. I was saying... [59:18] The storyline arc [59:20] of him being the next guy and here it is and he has now arrived. [59:24] I think it's really flipped over the last, I just know anecdotally with people in my life,

[59:29] He is now, he's basically had an entire career of narratives in the spate of two months where now it's like, [59:37] Can he play more than 30 minutes in a playoff game without wearing down? Why is he... Why does... [59:42] Why is the first half so different than the second half? Um, [59:46] What about some of the dirty stuff? Like the Knicks fans hate Wemby now. It's really interesting. Like they're just like that. Even the play with Brunson today, I got, [59:53] So many people in my life are like, "Yeah, there he is! He did it again!" This is a guy that went into the last two rounds of the playoffs, [1:00:00] kind of with the unanimous approval rating that now I think there's questions. I think there's, he's, [1:00:06] He's got people that don't like him. It's just, that's what I mean. Like, it went from like, oh my God, this is definitely the next guy. Here we go. To now people going, huh. [1:00:15] what do we actually have here? And what is he going to get better? And what is he going to add? And can he play more than 30 minutes a game without wearing down? And, [1:00:23] I don't know. I just think he left with a lot of questions. I do think it's worth again noting his team made the finals. And we just spent a lot of time talking about how the guards other than Harper were like [1:00:33] a little bit scattershot and castle was very bad tonight too. Um, [1:00:37] And he... [1:00:38] He was in the finals. They beat OKC. [1:00:40] And the dirty stuff is interesting because I do like clearly when he feels like he's getting beat up, there is a risk of him losing his temper. I mean, just ask Nas Reed. [1:00:50] Um, [1:00:51] I do think some of the things, like the landing spot thing, and a couple of the elbows that end up getting into somebody's jaws, I think he's just very tall, and his limbs are just going to get to places where...

[1:01:04] I agree with that. Like he doesn't really expect them to be, or you don't expect them to be. I think there's a little bit of that, but it is interesting. Um, [1:01:11] Thank you. [1:01:12] The top three players in the league in whatever order, [1:01:15] You want them to, [1:01:18] All left us this season in slightly disappointing fashion. Jokic shoots 19% from three in the first round and is just kind of not the same guy. Shea in the conference finals has an absolutely epic game seven, but ends up averaging 26 a game on 41% shooting. And then Victor in the finals... [1:01:36] has a little bit of a letdown. It's hard, man. They all ran into stuff and it was hard. They didn't quite live up to their usual production. [1:01:44] Here's where he should get dinged. [1:01:47] Game four, Mitch goes for the kill, leaves him in, right? He plays a ton of minutes and he just dies down the stretch. He just couldn't handle that kind of minute load, workload, physicality. He just... [1:01:58] He wilted. And part of it was because he probably didn't have the experience of playing minutes like that because they were really careful with him during the season. So it's like, give us your 30 best minutes. [1:02:09] In the playoffs, you can't do that anymore. You got to get into the 40s. Look at Brunson tonight. [1:02:14] Game 5 if you're digging him [1:02:18] I think it's got to start with all the Towns foul trouble. Towns is out of this game. [1:02:23] At the beginning of the third quarter, he's out now for the next... [1:02:27] basically quarter and a third, right? [1:02:31] How did Wemby not destroy the Knicks at that point? [1:02:34] They didn't have a center. They had Mitch Robinson, who was terrible this whole series.

[1:02:38] They had bridges on him at one point. They put a small ball lineup on him. If you're supposed to be... Now I sound like I'm a fucking talking head. No. But if you're supposed to be the guy, you're our next guy... [1:02:51] Here we come. We're about to hand the league to you. And they have a team that has no center out there. Why are you destroying them? I don't understand it. Okay. So in this particular game, the Knicks did play with no center for a couple of different stretches. [1:03:05] They tried to time it to the Cornette minutes for just the reason that they know this is untenable against Wembenyama. And then I was a little surprised that they would bring Huck Porte in when Wembenyama came in. They're like, fuck it, we're just going to go small against Wembenyama, which surprised me. And I thought there was at least one play where I think, I can't remember which guard it was. I think it was Castle. It might have been Harper. Had him on a lob. [1:03:28] and went for a two instead in the paint and missed. The lob was very clear there. He didn't throw it. Then there's another play where somebody just – he had bridges on him, and I think it was Fox just was like, throw the ball. And he threw the ball, and he caught it and laid it up and in. And at that exact moment, Mike Brown pointed to Mitchell Robinson. Can I get your ass off the bench? Yeah, you're back in. Here we go. It didn't last long, and they did exploit it to the point that Mike Brown was immediately like, yep, one bad. They figured it out. We need the big guy back in with the broken hand. [1:03:57] So he's talking a lot of shit in the first half of game four when they're up, right? Oh, he was. [1:04:03] That's not helping them either. [1:04:05] I just think it's going to be interesting how this goes for him for the next couple of months. Because first of all, he's American. He's not American. He's French.

[1:04:11] Second of all, English is... [1:04:13] English is the second language. And I think a couple times during the playoffs where he's just said things because... [1:04:20] He's saying things in the language that's not his. [1:04:23] And the way it could just get cut and interpreted seems a lot more aggressive. Like, [1:04:27] What was that quote where it was like, we're going to come back and win or when they were down 3-1? Everybody knows we're going to do it. [1:04:33] Yeah, I don't 100% even know that's what he meant, but he's French. I think that's what he meant. I think he's just trying to be confident. [1:04:41] Um, but I thought, uh, [1:04:44] If you're going to be the big boy, [1:04:46] and you're going to carry yourself like the big bully, you've got to do better in a game when Carl Anthony Towns only plays half the game because he's in foul trouble the whole time. When it's 3-1, [1:04:54] You've had two days rest. You can't wait in the rest thing. I just, I was really disappointed. But again, I'm not. [1:05:00] This is part of the process with the young guys. We saw with Tatum in the 2022 finals. [1:05:05] We saw it with... [1:05:07] Um, [1:05:08] LeBron in the 07 final. This is it. This is the taster and hopefully he vaults from this and [1:05:16] Goes up a level. But yeah, I thought there was a little more there offensively. I got to be honest. I mean, his rolls to the rim continue to be their best offense, right? And they got a ton of great threes that they missed on just him rolling to the rim. But yeah, you just... Like, he has these moves two or three times a game where he just decides... [1:05:33] I'm scoring and I'm not going to settle for the shot you want me to take. I'm going to at least get to the dotted line. [1:05:38] and spin or fake a half spin and loft a little hookup or a jumper. And it goes in. You're like, why, why is there not more of that? I just keep coming back to the poor Zingas shot as like, that should just be easy money for him as a, as a fail. Yeah. I will say. How about a jump hook? Can we add, can we throw a jump hook in there? You're seven, six. I, he'll probably spend time with Elijah one this summer and, and come back with stuff. Who knows? How about just go to the gym and shoot some jump hooks? Do we need to keep Elijah one to teach you how to turn around and,

[1:06:08] like everyone has a jump hook but anyone's ever played basketball has one i think this is all great that we're talking about this and he hasn't reached the mountaintop yet and he's getting beat up a little bit by fans who say he's dirty and like we're talking about the lack of this go-to move or whatever yeah and he had not only that his shit talking to mitchell robinson early in game four we said i'm in your head i'm in your head and it backfired mistake reminds me a little bit of like uh duane wade in game two of the finals uh in 2011 where he hits the three the whole bench [1:06:38] out and the Mavs get so furious. They're like, we can't let this team clown us like this. And they come back and win the game and they all cite that moment. [1:06:46] as a moment that changed their mindset. And Dwayne Wade cites that moment as like a oopsie moment for him. [1:06:51] Do you think OG is the greatest 3&D guy we've had in the 3&D era? Because it has to be somebody who's not an actual... [1:07:02] I couldn't average 25 to 26 a game if I had to. [1:07:06] On a good team. [1:07:08] I have to be like basically the third option. [1:07:11] I know exactly what I am. I'm over here. I'm going to play bass. We're going to have some awesome concerts. Every once in a while, I might get to sing a couple songs. [1:07:20] But that's all I'm doing. [1:07:22] And [1:07:23] And he knows it, and that's just who he is. I can't think of a better version of this. It's almost like we should change 3 and D to OG. [1:07:29] I mean, [1:07:30] I don't even know what he is, man, because he just averaged 20 points a game for an entire playoffs. And I know that, you know, scoring is up because of threes and all that. But like that's that's maybe maybe he's like a three and D like plus like he's he's just OGs like the separate category for three and D guys. So it's not that running plays for him. No. You know, I used to talk about three and D and D guys with the second D being drive. Like you got to be able to make plays out of closeouts. And he's good at that. But he can like he can do a little bit.

[1:07:59] A little bit of everything. Like, he can bully a mismatch. [1:08:02] If you got nothing else going on, he can hit an off the dribble three now and then. He's a 33 and double D guy? [1:08:08] I don't know. Like, don't go into Barkley territory on that. [1:08:13] But I just think he's a phenomenal player. And it was a trade I loved for them right away. You and I, I think, talked about it at one point, too, about, [1:08:23] The quickly in an OB debate and all that I just thought there was never any debate It was just such a smart identification of Alright if Brunson's our guy What kind of guys do we need to get around him [1:08:34] And if Brunson's our guy quickly is never going to develop, [1:08:37] under us the way that he could somewhere else and bear it is bear it. Like we just need a different guy. And that was absolutely like a plus identification of, [1:08:46] of talent. [1:08:48] Yeah, I remember... [1:08:50] I remember doing a pot about that trade. [1:08:52] And being like, I have no idea how this is going to play out. But I understand it from both sides. [1:08:58] but not [1:08:59] But it's like, at that point, OG... [1:09:01] You know, he'd... [1:09:03] could miss some games at some point. It was like Toronto always seemed pretty anxious to get off them for like three years. They didn't want to pay this contract that the Knicks are currently paying. And the Knicks are like, this is great. We'll pay you. Yeah, they were delighted to do it. Can we find a sponsorship deal for you under the table or something? Because we love you so much. By the way, Raptors, you know, I was thinking like very tangential winners and losers of the playoffs and of the NBA finals. Raptors and an OB, right? Siakam.

[1:09:32] And Siakam, and I had forgotten... [1:09:34] They traded Siakam [1:09:37] And the Pacers pick that one of the Pacers picks they got in that trade is now the number five pick in the draft. And it had quite a journey. It went Indiana, Toronto, Toronto, New Orleans, New Orleans back to Indiana and then Indiana to the Clippers. And now it's the number five pick in the draft. I forgot about that. [1:09:55] Crazy. Yeah, it seems like in retrospect, maybe Ananobi and Siakam could have worked together as two forwards on a really good team. But watching it in real time, it was a team that never really made sense. [1:10:07] Like there was something missing when you watch them and none of us could put our finger on it. It's like, I like this guy. I like this guy. It just didn't work. A lot of it was Scotty Barnes developing, I think, faster... [1:10:17] Than they thought and I think they maybe got a little ahead of Scottie Barnes development in making their team building decisions but they just concluded like this is not going to be a championship team the next championship team is going to be built around Scottie Barnes let's just pivot there now and yeah it looks I also though. [1:10:32] I also felt for Brooklyn Nets fans a little bit when Mike Breen said during the game about Julian Champagny, the Brooklyn kid torturing his hometown team. I was like, ooh, that one's going to sting just a little bit. [1:10:47] Yeah, that's a hard one. [1:10:50] On the bright side for San Antonio. [1:10:52] I think Carter Bryant's going to be really good. It's a very bright, bright side. [1:10:57] I love Carter Bryant, and next year maybe he's a little more involved. The Harper thing's incredible. It really felt like...

[1:11:03] There was a couple of moments tonight where I was like... [1:11:07] Wow, if the San Antonio wins this, it's going to be because Dylan Harper went to this crazy level that we've only seen a couple times from 20-year-olds in the finals. [1:11:16] And it was like, is he going to score 38 points? Is this just going to be like he single-handedly changes this? [1:11:22] And then Trump decides to go to game six. And all of a sudden the momentum is completely flipped against the next. That game already feels like three weeks ago. [1:11:30] The Trump game. Yeah, the playoffs are just so long. The Trump game feels like three weeks ago. You know how long the playoffs are? Here's a thought that popped into my head today. [1:11:39] This is like how broken my brain is. You know when it popped into my head when I was doing Ringer 100? [1:11:44] And I put this guy in the ringer 100 higher than I've ever had him. I was like, hey, man. [1:11:48] Tobias Harris had himself a playoffs, didn't he? That feels like seven months ago that Tobias Harris had himself a playoffs. I sent my ringer 100 in. I had Brunson fourth. [1:12:00] I don't remember where I had him. I'm not looking it up right now. I was not fourth, though. So that means you had him above Luka Giannis. I put him above Luka. Yeah. I put him above Luka. Why not? Why the hell not? He deserves to be above Luka. He just won the title. Just revise it now. Put him one. Why not? Why not have a ceremonial ringer 100? He's first now. [1:12:17] So Harper, they'll have to figure out the Fox thing, but it'll be fine. Maybe it doesn't materialize until February. And then Wemby, as you mentioned earlier, because of everything that played out the last three weeks, this is his Rocky III moment now. Now he's got to, what do I need to add?

[1:12:34] I've now tasted my own blood. [1:12:36] I'm a little bit villainy now in America, especially with the Knicks fan base and probably OKC too. And Minnesota, I have some teams that [1:12:45] franchise that don't like being like, this is going to be how it goes. So we did the most intriguing players of the playoffs before the playoffs. We had a draft. We did. [1:12:54] I picked Wemby for Apex Superstar and you picked SGA. Neither of us picked Brunson. [1:13:00] Um, [1:13:01] For Crossroads guy, Yutif Mitchell... [1:13:04] And I took Paolo and Franz as a combo. Who ended up being the Crossroads guy? [1:13:09] from the playoffs. I don't even know what the definition of crossroads guy is. Just like we leave the playoffs going, whoa, I guess it's Fox. [1:13:16] I think Fox is our crossroad. Crossing to the wrong side of the road? No, it's just like you're at the crossroads with this guy on your team. [1:13:23] or this guy in his career. I'd probably Fox. Defensive stud, I had O'Jane Ananobi, you had Derek White. That's nice. [1:13:31] Feel good star You had LaMelo, I had Tatum Well this was before the play-in tournament We counted the play-in teams Hot seat coach You had Jamal Mosley [1:13:42] I had E-Man Doka. Hot seat wild card. We really nailed it. You had Zachary Rischisch. I had Deere and Fox. We really nailed this one. Woo! Legacy guy. I had Brunson. You had Jokic. I think I took Brunson before. I'm not going to brag about that. You had for second banana Carl Anthony Towns. And I had Jalen Duren. So you hit that. [1:14:03] And you had Aaron, you had Mikhail Bridges and I had Aaron Gordon for third banana.

[1:14:08] I guess Bridges is not the third banana now. [1:14:13] Philippe, I had Maxie, you had Steph Castle. I think we both hit that. [1:14:17] Fine. Right? Yeah. [1:14:19] Trade machine guy, you had Julius Randall, I had J-Dub, so one for two there, you win. [1:14:24] week length, Jalen Green and I had to buy us [1:14:28] And then, uh, [1:14:29] We had a Koda guy for some reason. You had KD and I had Curry. Neither of those hit, but... [1:14:34] Boy did the KD Coda to his career not hit in these playoffs But that's what oh and for beloved Bench guy I had Luke Cornett you had Peyton Pritchard anyway that was a snapshot Of how we were feeling before the playoffs [1:14:46] And I don't know if... [1:14:51] I had GLN Brown to do at Anthony Edwards. [1:14:55] So I'm trying to think who we didn't have [1:14:59] Dylan Harper is the big one that's missing, huh? Wemby. None of us took Wemby. No, I had Wemby for Apex Superstar. You know who we didn't have was Mitch Johnson. So what happens with him now? [1:15:11] He's the coach of the Spurs. I don't think there's anything... [1:15:15] There's that. [1:15:16] You think they're delighted with how he coached the team in the finals? There's no universe. I think there are things to work on for sure, but there's no world in which they're making a coaching change. [1:15:30] I didn't think there were. I'm just asking if the, did the seat get a little hotter? No. [1:15:35] Okay. [1:15:37] It did for me.

[1:15:38] Um, [1:15:40] This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, choose up to three streams, and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox One, offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. [1:16:09] You have one new message. [1:16:13] Translating. Disney and Pixar's Hoppers is now available on Disney+. You could say that again. Critics are calling it Pixar's funniest movie ever and a wildly entertaining ride. Blizzard Potato. It's certified fresh and verified hot. Now we party. This is incredible! Wow! I am clear in the rest of the day. Disney and Pixar's Hoppers now available on Disney+. [1:16:39] Thank you. [1:16:40] Top five NBA stories other than the finals. [1:16:43] Now that the finals are over. Okay. We're just going to. We're okay. All right. Let's do it. What else do you have? No, that's it. Do you have any more finals? No, let's go top five stories. I just didn't make a list. I didn't know we were doing this. So let's go. Let's go. I mean, number one is obvious. [1:16:58] What do you think, number one? Giannis. [1:17:01] I had the top 10 order of the draft. I've become, this is not your expertise. Yeah. Number one or two. I'm really fascinated with what's happened to this draft because I'm, I think AJ, I am now at, I would bet anything. AJ is going to be the first pick. Anything, anything. I'll take the bet. He's minus 500 on Fando. I would lay it down if, if I could do it in California. Um,

[1:17:24] And I think Boozer is going to go too. [1:17:26] And I think Peterson will go three to Memphis, and we'll see how he handles that. And then Wilson four. [1:17:31] Nobody knows who's going five to the Clippers. Nobody. [1:17:34] People just had Wagler written in there. And now it feels like people are a little more lukewarm on him and, [1:17:40] maybe they trade back, but that five to 10 range is going to be fascinating. And then Golden State's in there 11, hoping somebody drops. So, [1:17:48] I'm interested in that. [1:17:50] I'm holding the honest straight to the end here. The Reeves contract, does that provoke interest from you, or do you just feel like the Lakers take care of him? [1:17:58] That provokes interest for me. I would guess the Lakers, I would bet the Lakers take care of him, but [1:18:03] Would you feel good about paying him $50 million a year after the series you just watched? [1:18:07] Thank you. [1:18:09] Which series? [1:18:10] The next Spurs series. Just thinking about that level of basketball and... [1:18:16] I look, I don't feel great about paying a lot of players $50 million a year in a salary cap second apron environment. But what's my alternative? [1:18:26] I feel okay. I feel okay. [1:18:29] But then he's not on my team. [1:18:31] And I have to figure out [1:18:33] what's my team around Luka Doncic? Um, [1:18:36] The problem for them is they have to pay him because Luke is like, what do you mean you're not paying him? He's my second best teammate. [1:18:43] But I think that really, two $50-plus million guys makes everything really hard. So I have that. [1:18:52] What does Cleveland do?

[1:18:54] I think is a really good one. I'm prepared for basically anything with that, although I haven't heard anything about them being involved with Giannis. Have you? [1:19:02] Uh, [1:19:03] I, [1:19:04] I think... [1:19:06] I think they're always hovering on the periphery, but it would very clearly take [1:19:11] It would take Mobley and it would take Giannis indicating that he would sign a long-term extension there. And it just feels like a pretty unlikely series of events. He has not indicated that at all. And then before we get to Giannis, LeBron... [1:19:24] Oh, sure. What happens with that is a good one. [1:19:27] It always is. It always is. This one's a really fun one because the Warriors is really in play now, like for real. [1:19:33] I really feel like [1:19:34] If I had to bet my life on a team, I think I would bet on it. Stop betting your life and everything on these things. I'm not actually betting it. [1:19:42] But that's what I think that would be the move for me. And that's attached to the Cleveland topic, too. At least they have to be at least monitored for that. [1:19:51] Yeah, but how does he... That would basically be him doing... [1:19:56] $30 million a year and then them trading Jared Allen to the Lakers? [1:20:00] I don't know. I don't know how it works. I've been in the finals bunker, but Ori takes an enormous pay cut, which I don't see. But who knows? I don't know. We've never seen a famous rich guy take a giant pay cut other than Karl Malone that one time. [1:20:15] The honest trade. [1:20:17] Is that five storylines already? [1:20:19] Yeah, those are the five. Why do you have another one? Well, I mean, Aspiration...

[1:20:25] Oh, wrapping up. I mean, Adam Silver kind of Adam Silver for the first time kind of acknowledged that is which I think it was before game was. Yes, taking a while. We got to wrap this one up, guys. [1:20:35] A lot of billable hours. Can we just get to the end of this? [1:20:39] If you're the Clippers, do you hope it wraps up after you have the fifth pick of the draft? Because that would be one of my hopes. [1:20:46] Can we wrap this up in July, guys? [1:20:48] Yeah. Uh, [1:20:50] I'm going to lose my fifth pick if I'm getting my dink. Do you think they were rooting for a seven-game final just to shrink the window between the finals and the draft? [1:20:58] um [1:21:00] All right. That's a good one too. So Giannis, what are you hearing? [1:21:06] I think [1:21:08] The Bucks, I think, well, I mean, they're trading him. I would be shocked at this point if they didn't. [1:21:13] They obviously know what Miami's offer is. They have not traded him to Miami yet. [1:21:19] Uh, so... [1:21:21] Other things are afoot, and I don't know how many teams are realistically in it. [1:21:27] Um, [1:21:28] I you you have talked about it. I would definitely watch Boston. [1:21:32] potentially diving in, not just dipping their toe in, but diving in? I think they dove in. They made... [1:21:40] From what I heard, they made an offer in the past week, a couple of days before I mentioned on Thursday. I don't know what the offer was, and I don't know who was in it. [1:21:47] But they are in... Pat was in the ring, which I was really surprised by, as I said on Thursday, because I thought they were sitting it out. And I don't know...

[1:21:56] Do you think something changed? Do you think... [1:21:59] they looked at this from every angle or that they realize, oh, that's it for the Miami offer? We can beat that? Like, what would have changed their mindset? Because I do not think they were in on Giannis at the beginning of the offseason. I don't think they were ever out. I just, the safest bet is always inertia, right? Like, the safest bet is we know... [1:22:17] that the nucleus we have works really well. And yeah, [1:22:21] There's. [1:22:21] some degree of risk in shaking that up for a 31 year old who's been injury prone and we're going to have to sign up to ginormous extension. Um, [1:22:29] That's a big pivot for a team that has a pretty large [1:22:33] Window now of being one of the best teams in the nba when everyone's healthy But I think it's probably just frustration with how the season ended [1:22:42] Um, [1:22:43] some public comments that had been made after the season that ruffled some feathers. I'm sure. [1:22:48] And again, like a dearth of like, how many teams are we really competing against? If, if we go, if we go for them and I'm not saying they're, they've gone, gone for him, but maybe they have, there's Miami. Like, I don't really know how real the Portland thing is. Is he signing an extension in Portland? I don't think so. I don't think he's going to say that up front anyway. Um, [1:23:06] Orlando, I'm not sure how real that one is yet. Toronto, I just don't think they have enough to get it done because obviously they're not putting Scotty Barnes in that deal. So I don't really know. [1:23:16] even if they wanted to do it or make an offer, what it would be. I mean, there just aren't that many... [1:23:22] teams that are going to, you know, [1:23:25] rock the boat to the degree the Bucs are going to need it rocked.

[1:23:28] on top of that he wants to go to Miami or Boston. And I think Boston over Miami. [1:23:33] Because he has a better chance to win a title in Boston. Because Miami's going to trade all this stuff on the side and just have him and Bam and then have to figure it out. And it's been made clear, I think, Oklahoma City's out. There's not going to be a panic Chet trade. I can tell you for sure other teams have checked Chet. [1:23:48] on Chet and been stiff-armed. San Antonio is obviously out. [1:23:52] The team that has been curiously unmentioned and I think is, [1:23:55] Unmentioned because they haven't been in is Houston In terms of teams that have assets Right like I just And then uh [1:24:03] What am I, I don't know if it's top five interesting stories, but just... [1:24:08] A team that has a lot of assets and... [1:24:12] Is Brooklyn really just going to [1:24:15] like what are they going to do? Are they going to be like the Reeves offer sheet team or the Reeves like count offer team? Are they going to be, [1:24:23] Are they willing to just be bad again? Like, what are they actually going to do? [1:24:27] Yeah, because you do the Reeves offer sheet. [1:24:29] When can you do it? Like July 1st? Well, it's not. He's unrestricted. So they don't have to worry about that. [1:24:36] I mean, you can't offer him the money until... [1:24:39] I guess you could do wink wink before it. Um, [1:24:43] I don't know. Is he really going to leave the Lakers to go to the Brooklyn Nets to play with 17 point guards? None of whom are impact guys. [1:24:50] Here's the problem for the Nats and why I've been on this one for a few weeks, like just being interested in it.

[1:24:59] they don't, like the best guys to take at number six are all point guards. And they just invested last year in a bunch of point guards, including they spent the eighth pick on a point guard. So you'd basically be punting on last year's draft. I just think it'd be weird if they took Acuff. Acuff is the guy they should take if he's there, but [1:25:17] How does that make sense with the rest of the team you have? I don't get that. So I'm with you. I can see them trading him, trading that pick for a star. I'm just waiting for the Nets rumbling. That makes sense to me because like, even like they've, [1:25:30] They keep, like, every couple weeks you'll hear, like, well, there's still a team to watch for Giannis. And I'm like, well, okay, why? And why is Giannis going there? And who else is going there? Like, I just, I don't know. [1:25:43] what the right [1:25:44] By the way, Knicks probably can be ruled out for Giannis at this point in a trade. Well, I mean, I'm sure Milwaukee in the back of their heads was wondering, could that be a potential suitor if something weird happens in the finals? It's not going to be the Spurs. Something weird did happen. The Knicks won the finals in dominant fashion with a 16-3 playoff run. [1:26:04] I think Boston's going to get Giannis. [1:26:06] Okay. [1:26:07] And I think it will happen in the next week would be my prediction. [1:26:10] Um, I would not bet my life on it, but I think, how do you feel about that? [1:26:16] Pretty ambivalent. [1:26:18] It's for all the reasons I did like a month ago when I was going through the stats of all these guys in their 14th season or later and 32 years later. I heard it. These big guys. It's just –

[1:26:30] History is against it. Now, [1:26:32] We're in a different era. It's 2026. There's different ways to take care of your body and advancements in medicine. We have a guy... [1:26:39] The Lakers, who was 41 years old, averaging 25 points a game last year. [1:26:43] So who knows? But I think it's pretty risky. I'm more interested why they're in it now and I don't think they were in it before. And is there... [1:26:54] Is there stuff they're saying with Jalen Brown? [1:26:56] that makes them realize like, oh, this guy got a taste of being the star. [1:27:01] And we can't go back to where we were in 2024 anymore. We have two guys who think they're the best guy in this team, and this is not – [1:27:08] going to be resolved. [1:27:09] Can I ask you a total devil's advocate question related to this? [1:27:15] I, [1:27:15] Again, it's a devil's advocate question. Okay. It's a rhetorical device. [1:27:20] But if I conclude that I want to get Giannis... [1:27:23] And if... [1:27:24] Just mathematically, I have to trade one of the Jays to get Giannis. [1:27:29] Why is it just assumed that it's Jalen Brown and not Jason Tatum after the year Jalen Brown just had and Jason Tatum's coming off an Achilles injury? Just a question that at least needs to be asked. I know the answer. [1:27:41] I understand Jason Tatum is better than Jalen Brown. First team all NBA. I'd have him higher ranked and all that. [1:27:47] But isn't it interesting? It's just completely assumed. [1:27:51] It's a fair question. He's younger, but he is coming off the injury. [1:27:55] Um, [1:27:57] I think he's considered to be a more popular ticket selling superstar than Jaylen is.

[1:28:04] Right? [1:28:05] Better shooter. Has been a better player. I get it. [1:28:07] Yeah, and I think there's probably a slightly higher ceiling. And then with Jalen, maybe you're thinking... [1:28:13] It's time to sell high. He's never going to have a better season than the last one. Fair. I always wanted them to stay together, but the more I look at it, I just wonder... [1:28:21] It's just a lot of weirdness during and after the season. Like, even... [1:28:26] Even little stuff like... [1:28:29] Like Jalen St. Tatum is going to come on his Twitch stream. [1:28:32] I didn't see that. When did that? Well, this was like a month ago when he did that. He was like, oh, we're going to have Jason on. [1:28:39] Hasn't been on. Like, do those guys get along? I literally have no idea. And I don't know... [1:28:45] I don't know if that's a piece of this or not, but you also have Giannis who has Drew Hanlon who's [1:28:51] you know, [1:28:52] also Tatum's guy, and I just... [1:28:54] I just feel like we see where the two leaves are going with this one. Now, there were Trey Murphy rumors. I don't know how they would get Giannis and Trey Murphy. I'm not going to believe that one. That seems crazy. [1:29:05] But do I think Giannis... [1:29:08] Makes more sense. [1:29:10] in a Boston deal than a Miami deal if Jalen's in the deal. [1:29:14] Yeah, because that's a better player than anyone in Miami. Miami's like, we'd love to get Giannis. You can't have Batman out of Io. At that point, are you making a real offer or not? [1:29:24] And you could offer all these picks and all these other things, but it's not, who's your centerpiece? You're trading a guy who won you the title in 2021. [1:29:33] Five years ago. And his Ben Mather franchise. Five years ago.

[1:29:36] And has been in your city since 2013. And you're going to trade him for a bunch of stuff and you can't point to one thing. I will say- [1:29:42] Okay. [1:29:44] to, to, to, to, [1:29:46] Just for the sake of fairness. [1:29:48] I do think new lottery rules... [1:29:51] 31-year-old injury-prone player going to Miami who guts the rest of its non-BAM roster to get him. [1:29:56] I think those picks, the further out you get to Miami picks, there's real upside. It's a great point. [1:30:01] Real upside in those picks. [1:30:03] On the flip side, [1:30:05] what is Jalen Brown doing for me if I'm the Milwaukee Bucks? I guess what he's doing for me is like, again, there's upside if we become a 38-win team or a 42-win team and miss the playoffs. And he just proved that he's actually better than people thought. Maybe we do. Like, get Jalen Brown, nail a couple fringe signings. Suddenly we're like a feel-good 47-win team. Is that better than... [1:30:25] And then he has trade value. Maybe we flip him. I think these are all questions worth... But don't you think that it's a three-teamer if Boston's in it? I can't imagine they end up with Jalen Brown. I would assume... [1:30:36] He goes to Portland or Atlanta or New Orleans or somewhere else. I think that's all possible. The more teams... [1:30:42] I got to say the Portland one makes a lot of sense. It's been one of my favorite, my two favorite, [1:30:48] They conjured up Giannis trades or the three-teamer where Jalen Brown goes to Portland and some other stuff goes everywhere. And then the Bucs get their draft assets back from Portland. And the draft assets back, you get Scoot back. You probably get something else from Boston. Wow, Scoot's getting thrown in there. I think he has to. If I'm trading Giannis, I need my picks back and I need to at least have Scoot. And then if I'm Portland...

[1:31:11] And I end up with Denny and Jalen Brown together with Klingon. [1:31:16] With Dan Hemp. [1:31:18] With Kamara, with [1:31:20] with sharps there like i i still have drew holiday like i i'm kind of excited about that team well some it's a pretty interesting team one of those guys may not be there but and i which guy [1:31:30] Well, like Sharp or Holiday, maybe. I wouldn't know. I mean, Holiday would want to be there. I would assume Jeremy Grant would be going to Milwaukee if... [1:31:40] That would be the guy that I would move if I'm getting Jim. Possibly. I think Portland makes more sense than Atlanta or New Orleans. And I always liked the Bancaro one. I mean, I've been talking about it since the beginning of last season when I had to remind myself he was not really – he was kind of poison-pilled because of the cap rules. He's not anymore. I just like – that's an interesting one. Again, I don't know if that one has any actual legs. Do you think what Boston watched in these last two rounds would make them more prone to trade for Giannis? Because I actually think it would for me. [1:32:11] For what reason? [1:32:12] well I gotta beat the next physicality [1:32:15] The Knicks were kind of built to beat Boston and did. [1:32:19] Right? [1:32:20] And then... [1:32:21] Um, [1:32:22] I have no inside out game and I'm jacking up threes, which Steven's made a point of saying in that press conference, like I'm tired of losing the way we're losing. [1:32:29] We need to be more unpredictable offensively. We need inside-outside. So all that ties to Giannis. I just... [1:32:35] I don't know if it's a great idea. I'm really, I wish I was more excited about it. [1:32:40] Like part of me hopes Miami just

[1:32:42] gets them and they try to figure out how to make the Tatum Brown thing work. These guys played together nine years and, um, [1:32:50] That would be my preference, but we will see. Yeah, there's a chance if Boston does it, that it ends up being just kind of a lateral move. It's just like, if it's the deal we're thinking of, or Jalen Brown goes out, then like... [1:33:02] Maybe it just doesn't [1:33:04] Do you play differently and maybe end up in the same place? Which has been largely a very good place. But although, as you pointed out, they've had crazy playoff success and some crushing playoff outcomes around it. There's no way they get... If they're in on Giannis, I don't see how Jalen's not in it. You're not getting him for Derek White and all the rest of your picks, right? So it has to be Jalen. Well, and it's just... I mean, you can't have three guys making $70 million on your team. It's just not tenable. Is there a wild card... [1:33:34] I'm prepared to put my seatbelt on for this team team for you over the next 10 days. [1:33:39] Just crazy offseason overall. [1:33:41] Just like, [1:33:43] I'm just ready for anything. Because I think for me, Denver would be that team. I don't know. [1:33:48] I don't know what I'm prepared for, and maybe I'm not prepared for anything, but I also... [1:33:53] Don't know how they just run it back. [1:33:57] You know? [1:33:58] I guess I just am anticipating a more predictable offseason for Denver. But again, they've already said, they haven't said, but it's been reported that everybody but Jokic is on the table, which, you know, there's some everybody's there. I guess I think we're all expecting New Orleans to do some stuff, right, with Trey Murphy and other places.

[1:34:18] I think, like, Minnesota... [1:34:20] always seems to be [1:34:22] Always seems to be thinking outside the box. [1:34:25] And they just watched Oklahoma City and San Antonio, and those are the teams they've got to compete with. I'd keep an eye on them. Atlanta, I don't really know. [1:34:35] what their appetite is for something big. [1:34:37] But they certainly have a lot of different directions they could go. [1:34:41] On a small scale, I'm interested in OKC just because they have – [1:34:44] I think 12 and 17 plus all these picks. Like there's some sort of like non-major move that could still be really fun for us. [1:34:52] And then Charlotte with 14 and 18 in the draft could get frisky somewhere. [1:34:57] And that's, I always thought that made sense as a bonus team. I had, [1:35:01] um, one person who is very, uh, very into the Charlotte team who's like, well, we have Diabate. Why do we need Sabonis? It's like, I don't know. I just like Sabonis. I feel like he's, I feel like Sabonis is undervalued now where he's, [1:35:13] just become like this sunk cost. I don't think he is. Like, I still feel like there are good teams for him. They're a center away from being really interesting. And he would definitely have the, uh, Tim Robbins. I just, the scamp Shawshank balance getting out of Sacramento. He's just, he's, he's going to be 20 and 14 wherever he goes. Right. The problem is if your team can't play defense, [1:35:35] which I don't know if maybe Charlotte's not the right team for him from that standpoint, but I still value him as an, [1:35:41] as like a kind of a buy low asset. [1:35:44] Charlotte's also going to be in a position with 12, 14, whatever they end up doing is with the,

[1:35:49] to draft a center. And I think that needs to be factored in as well. [1:35:54] Yeah. And then Houston's the other one that I'm [1:35:56] Houston might just decide to run it back. [1:35:59] Just, hey, we had bad luck last year. We'll bring Adam's back. [1:36:04] And everything will be fine. But I find that one hard to believe. It does feel like a long, long time ago. [1:36:13] that Reed Shepard shot 30% in the playoffs and had one of the more disastrous turnovers in [1:36:20] of the last calendar year in the NBA. It's a long... [1:36:23] Yeah, that does feel like forever. So in general, the playoffs, the first two rounds were pretty blah. [1:36:29] The... [1:36:30] Round three, Knicks Cavs was awful. [1:36:33] Unless you're a Knicks fan. [1:36:35] OKC San Antonio had a really fun game one and a fascinating game seven. All the middle games are pretty, pretty blah. [1:36:42] And then the finals was one of the most entertaining five-game finals we've ever had in our lives. I don't think you could even get a better five-game finals. I think this is just the apex of a five-game final. I mean, every game was a nail-biter. The total score was Knicks plus 12 over five games. Like, I just, every game had you, they were similar, and yet everyone unfolded a little bit differently. And just, it was edgier seat the whole time. I'm trying to think about other ones. [1:37:12] They have great finals, Pistons-Blazers. Just a good matchup, really good games. [1:37:17] And that Blazers team had a little bit of Spursitis where they just did dumb shit.

[1:37:21] At the worst possible times. But yeah, it's pretty rare to have a really good five-game series. You're talking five or less... [1:37:28] Five or less. Well, four is usually pretty hard to find a good four one. But yeah. Well, the Lakers would argue, and they got swept by Denver in 2023, one of the all-time great sweeps. Well, Kenny Atkinson this year. [1:37:41] Oh, well. [1:37:42] Yeah, he thought that was... Yeah, that was another one. We really could do... [1:37:48] A really fun... [1:37:49] just, [1:37:50] 15. Hey, remember when that happened moments from the NBA playoffs every year? And like that would have been that's already been pushed back to the back of my brain. Like we're analytically up to one. Congratulations. [1:38:01] Yeah, when we had in the first couple rounds, like, [1:38:04] We had that improbable Philly-Boston comeback. [1:38:08] The one week where it seemed like Embiid was back as an asset, and then he just wilted in the next series. We had a Paul George resurgence. There was a lot of funky shit happening. [1:38:19] Um, all right, Zach. Well, thanks for staying up late. Oh, one third in the morning. You'll be lying in bed with your heart pounding for the next two hours. I won't. I'm going to, I'm going to go have a glass of wine cause I can't go to sleep and that'll help me go to sleep. And, uh, [1:38:32] This is early for me on a team. If I'm at the championship clinching game, I'm usually up until 4, hanging out with people who are celebrating. What was your best memory of that for the hanging out until 5 in the morning? [1:38:46] Thank you. [1:38:47] With the team that won the title. [1:38:50] Uh,

[1:38:51] One of the Warriors parties... [1:38:56] I won't name which one. [1:38:58] Um, was really, really fun. Um, [1:39:03] And I finagled my way in. [1:39:05] And one day when I'm retiring and I don't care no more, I'll tell a fun story from that party. Oh, I can't wait. That is, yeah, that for now goes in the vault. [1:39:15] that I still the main characters and I still laugh about it every once in a while. And your next podcast will probably be Monday, I'm guessing. [1:39:22] Yeah, I think we're just deviating from normal calendar Tuesday, Thursday. I got to think a little bit more about this and talk Knicks, and I'm hoping to get a couple of guests. I'm aiming to record tomorrow night, wrap up the finals, wrap up the playoffs, talk about some of this offseason stuff. I like to luxuriate in the championship. This is why we all do this, is to have what the Knicks just had. Let's luxuriate it a little bit before we pivot to... [1:39:50] Giannis, although who knows? Giannis could get traded tomorrow, and then we have an emergency podcast right away. [1:39:56] The Big Bad West. [1:39:57] One for three in titles last three years. [1:40:01] Okay. [1:40:02] Yeah. [1:40:03] They beat the hell out of each other. [1:40:07] Two of the last three titles have come from the East. We're back, baby. Who went in 22? The Warriors. Warriors, 21 was the Bucs. Three of the last five. [1:40:19] Coming from the east. [1:40:20] 20 Lakers, 19 Raptors. So we were alternating. Before the last seven. Eight straight. Eight straight. What a slump for the West. Eight straight new champions, you know, as much trumpeted stat.

[1:40:33] Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as always Don't forget I have Rewatchables coming tomorrow night [1:40:40] The hand that rocks the cradle. [1:40:42] Next issue. [1:40:44] and from Helmuth. And then Zach will have a podcast probably in the next 36 hours. Zach Lowe, thanks for staying up with me. [1:40:50] Congrats to the New York Knicks. Congrats to the Knicks fans. Thank you. [1:40:57] Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. If you have a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call [redacted phone] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call [redacted phone] for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE. [1:41:27] or text HOPENY in New York for Louisiana. Call [redacted phone].