OKC Gets Wobbled, Cleveland’s Done, and Knicks Nirvana Is Here (Maybe) With Zach Lowe and Sean Fennessey

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[01:45] Bill Simmons Podcast live here on Netflix. [01:49] You can hear his pie. He just put one up last night. [01:52] A little post-game reaction to Nick's Cavs. [01:55] Your Tuesday mornings, Thursday mornings. [01:57] I have rewatchables coming Monday, last comedy movie that we – [02:01] that we did for a month of May, Animal House. Wow. Classic. [02:05] Really good. A lot of great lines. Had a great time. So that's coming. You can watch all those movies on Netflix. All right. We're coming off Oklahoma City, San Antonio, Game 4. I love Game 4s. Game 4s are always great. [02:17] Game fours are always like, you bet three games of feeling each other out, and then game four is the awesome game. [02:23] Not today. That did not happen. [02:26] But there's a certain buzz for game fours because if it's a 2-0, forget the 3-0 game fours like we're going to see tomorrow, the 2-1 game fours, it's the fork in the road game. It's either this is going to be an epic potential seven-gamer or 3-1, and it's going to have to be a crazy comeback to get it to seven. Now at least we're looking – I'm just – cancel your Saturday plans now because wouldn't you be surprised at this point if we go like – it doesn't feel like one of these teams is going to take the next two games consecutively. [02:57] Counter. [02:58] Okay. [03:00] Are we getting Jalen Williams the rest of the way here? [03:04] And if we don't get him and we don't get A.J. Mitchell, the thing that jumped out tonight was just all of a sudden OKC had one creator. [03:11] And San Antonio, you knew they were going to guard Shea differently tonight. I think that was the easiest prediction to make.

[03:17] Basically, like, knock yourself out. [03:18] We're going to guard the hell out of you. If you get 35, great. We're not letting these other guys get good shots. We're not letting them get going, which is what they did. But you could really feel the lack of a second creator in this game. So you lose Jalen Mitchell. I mean, Jalen Williams, but then you also... [03:34] Don't have A.J. Mitchell either. [03:35] Now all that goes on McCain, who stunk tonight. And in the fourth quarter, Aaron Wiggins was running offense for them. It was just weird. All of a sudden, they felt depleted. [03:46] Well, the whole fourth quarter was kind of a slow motion give up by the Thunder. I mean, I know Chet came back in the game, but SGA did it. But yeah, I mean, there are game fours. [03:55] where you feel like, uh-oh, [03:58] Did one team solve the other team, even if it's a 2-2 series? The poster series for that is the 2015 finals when the Warriors went small. [04:07] And played the death lineup. And everyone was like, uh-oh. Is this just a wrap even though it's 2-2 and we should feel tense about it? I'm not like – I agree with you that something happened tonight that gave me a glimmer of – [04:21] of that sensation and it was the combination of softening the double teams on Shea to the point that we're just not doubling you high on the floor if you get to within 14 feet we'll start darting guys at you stunting guys that you may be a hard double here and there but it's going to come late and it's going to come suddenly and it's not going to come every time and it's going to be a much more confusing defense for you to pick apart because they were picking apart the traps and the combination

[04:51] creators to play off of to throw the ball to and it felt like huh [04:57] And I spent the second half of the game trying to think like, if I now know this is coming, I'm going to be a little bit more. [05:01] And I don't have Jalen Williams and AJ Mitchell. [05:05] What is adjusting to this look like? Like, Shea can get by anybody off the dribble. [05:11] and get into the 18 foot range. But what does life look like after that? How am I recreating the open threes and the good shots that we got in, [05:19] If they're not just throwing guys at me. And I don't know the – I'm workshopping some answers, but I don't have any good ones yet. Well, and you didn't even mention they're also losing all the transition stuff. They're losing the fast break stuff because he's the only guy – [05:33] That really felt in good hands. It was not a good [05:35] Not a good night for the caisson Wallace worth $30 million a year. [05:39] agent strategy. [05:41] Listen. [05:42] Game three. [05:43] I thought Shea in game two, I didn't get to do anything after game three. I just thought. [05:48] Shea was just so good in those two games and just picking them apart and the way he was using his teammates. It was about as good as you can play the guard position, right? So they knew they couldn't, [05:58] do whatever they did defensively again. [06:02] It was notable, like his stats, Tariko mentioned that near the end of the game. His stats aren't that good in this series for how well it seemed like he played in those two games. I think he's under 40% for the series now. I mean, Wemby was the best part in the four, which now makes two games where he was the best part in the four, and we're at 2-2, which is kind of where we thought we were going to be anyway. So I look at it like,

[06:22] Game two, I didn't love the officiating. I thought it really affected the game. Game four was the other way. I thought the officiating affected the game for... [06:30] in San Antonio's favor. Dort and Caruso. Dort had 4,009 minutes. Caruso had 4,012 minutes. And it's just like, they weren't allowed to have the same physicality that they've had in some of these other games. There was big free throw advantages for San Antonio. That was one thing. [06:45] Wemby had a superstar game. [06:48] And then I thought Castle... [06:50] The two-way game he played and the stuff he was doing defensively, I just thought he was awesome tonight. [06:55] Just flat out awesome. [06:57] The loudest 13.6 assist game possible, I think. None of the guards... [07:05] Harper, 7 points in 21 minutes. Fox, 12 points in 31 minutes. [07:11] Castle 13 and 30. [07:14] It doesn't like jump off the page that any of them played great. I thought Fox looked pretty good with the ankle stuff. And Harper had a couple of explosive plays that are pretty encouraging for how he's feeling. But just the presence of them. [07:27] 12 turnovers for the Spurs. That's the thing. That's a winning recipe and just a calm to the offense. And on the other side, the Thunder finished with 33 threes attempted, but they only had 11 at halftime. And I thought that number really stood out as like they're just not creating – [07:45] open shots against this defense right now and Wemby he wasn't just [redacted address] yeah he wasn't just the best player in the game for the second time in the series he was the best player by a mile in the in a game for the second time in the series and like that's also kind of alarming for the Oklahoma City Thunder that he's the best player by that much in half the series now did you think the half court shot was going in because I did I did

[08:08] I was like, that's going in. I don't know why. I knew it was going in. I sound like LeBron. I'm like, I knew when he took it, I knew it was going in. But it really was like, hey, he's going to make this. I knew it was going in. [08:20] But I only knew because I was about two minutes behind in the game and our text thread blew up and you all ruined it for me. Like my friend ruined Tyrone Taylor's three run tying home run against the Yankees last week by texting me before I'd seen it. So I knew I knew I knew it was just a bunch of wows. So I knew something was going to happen. And then obviously that was it. [08:40] I want to talk about Wemby in one second. You mentioned something about the guards. None of the box scores were spectacular. [08:45] But to me, the turnovers was the big thing. [08:47] Because that's what killed them. [08:50] especially in game two. But Fox, even though Fox wasn't amazing, at least he can take care of the ball. [08:58] That allows Castle to be more of a two-way freelancer guy. [09:02] And I just felt like their team seemed like their team tonight. It was the team that we watched. [09:06] Now there's some weird stuff happening. [09:09] We see this happen in a series where you just start losing guys you can trust as the series goes along. [09:16] I no longer think Champagny shots are going in. [09:20] I no longer think Kelton Johnson shots are going in. [09:24] So those are two pretty big guys for them during the season that now feel like they're in a major... [09:30] major funk. And I'm wondering, like, we get to like a game six, game seven, like, really, like these seven minutes are going to determine our season. It feels like it's going to be the three guards with Bissell and Wemby will be the lineup that,

[09:43] It's kind of like, this is it. These are our best five. [09:46] What is it for OKC? [09:48] Like if we don't have Jalen Williams again, [09:50] I assume Caruso's out there with SGA and probably Chet, but what, like, is it just a feel for the game or do you even feel like they have a best five at this point? [09:59] I think it's a feel for the game, and it starts with, do we feel better with two bigs, one big, [10:06] If it's two, is it Hartenstein and Chet, who were minus 28, I think, coming into this game, but Hartenstein was carrying the offense early on with one ridiculously high floor. That was unbelievable. Just one of the great stretches of random shot making in recent playoff history. He led them in shots to that, I think. [10:26] Uh, no, she caught him at the end. Yeah. He was tied for second with Aaron Wiggins. Not a great, just not a great statistical indicator. Um, so which two big guys do you want? Or is just one big guy. And then if it's one big guy, you're really like, you're, you're scraping the end of your perimeter fill out guys that we really trust with, you know, case and Wallace would probably be in there with Caruso. And then like Dort has done pretty much nothing this series except Fallon [10:56] and the other guys are injured. Yeah, if he's just going to foul and miss threes, at least get some cheap shots in and try to change the tenor of the series. Whatever he's doing has not worked. They played... [11:11] 11 guys plus Topic at the end.

[11:14] So they put 11 guys for real during the flow of the game. [11:17] But also didn't have... [11:19] J-Dub and also didn't have AJ Mitchell. [11:22] This Thunder team is so bizarre to watch in the playoffs. There's been all these... [11:27] cool stats about all the lineups they use and, [11:30] it's almost like watching a hockey team. [11:33] And then he's constantly mixing and matching. But sometimes I wonder, like, at some point as the playoff series goes along, I need to figure out who my five are. [11:41] Who my six are, who my seven are. [11:43] It's just like Wiggins hasn't played really all playoffs. And tonight it felt like they actually needed him. So... [11:50] I don't know. This has been a weird one because I felt like after each game – [11:54] I became convinced that the team that won was in great shape, and then it just flips, which I guess is the point of a seven-game series. But now I honestly think San Antonio has the advantage, though. [12:05] I have no idea. I'm going to wait. If those two guys are out the whole series, Mitchell and J-Dub, and the Spurs injured guards can play at this level, then I agree with you. San Antonio, despite having only one home game left, has probably an edge in the series because of what we saw tonight. And I think the Thunder's best fives. [12:25] The lineup I've been waiting to see and I think they've been waiting to use, well, two of the five are not playing right now. And the lineup would have been Shea, Mitchell, Caruso, J-Dub, Chet. And I think that's the best five that they can put out. It did not play much in the regular season. It got unleashed early in the series. And just as soon as we saw it, it's gone. And certainly the lack of any clarity on timetables for either guy has me a little concerned right at this moment, late at night, on whatever night this is. But maybe we'll get an encouraging update tomorrow.

[12:55] So. [12:55] The Mitchell one seems more concerning. [12:58] Because calf strain is just automatic. You're out for at least a week. [13:01] Right. We don't. [13:03] If they'd given it the... [13:05] you know, when you're reading the, uh, the injury stuff, like the mild calf strain. [13:09] Kev Tweak. [13:11] - This was like calf strain. So calf strain to me means seven to 10 days. [13:16] which probably takes him out. And he didn't look right even before he got hurt. You could tell there was something up. [13:21] The J-Dub thing, I have no idea. [13:24] This has been... [13:25] the longest hamstring injury, I think, in league history. It feels like this is just his body has not been healthy. What did they say? He's... [13:33] Finish two [13:35] two playoff games or something out of the three rounds. Well, and it's weird because when he comes back, he looks good. Like, it's not like he's like, he's an induit. He looks 70%. He looks like pretty good. [13:47] pretty close to all NBA J-Dub, and it does change [13:51] Their team, you're reminded like, oh, having a giant wing who can do all of these different things on both ends of the floor, super valuable. And then it just he just can't kick it. And it might be one of these things that just requires a little bit more sustained off time to just disappear or work itself out. And obviously they don't have the luxury of that right now. They're minus 250 to win the series, Oklahoma City, which I just completely disagree with. [14:17] That's updated now? That's on Fando, yeah, minus 250. [14:22] Wow. [14:23] I do not agree with that. Because I thought Harper, Harper looked back to me tonight. He had that one dunk in traffic where he exploded. Like, he seems okay.

[14:31] Fox, you can tell, is... [14:33] 75-80% speed, but is still able to [14:37] be a point guard and run the offense and all that stuff. [14:40] I have an important question for you. Okay. [14:43] Who do you think the rest of the league is rooting for in this series? [14:48] Like both competitively and like long-term big picture. [14:53] Uh, [14:54] I think both of these teams are looked upon as, oh, boy, they're going to be a big fan. [15:02] we got to deal with this for the next however many years. And there would almost be, the easy answer is that people are rooting for the Spurs, right? Because of all the officiating stuff and the thunder getaway, the fouls and the flopper, like they're just straight up hitting Shea with the flopper chant in San Antonio, which very good performance by the Spurs fans all around. Like you gotta be, if you're going to chant like that, [15:22] You just got to get right to the point and be as mean as possible. And it's a one word chant and it, and it does the job. But I will say there, there, even, even though the OKC is the correct answer for like hoop teams are rooting against, I guess the rest of the league is rooting against, there would also be like a, [15:40] whoo victor's already here like if they win it's like they're already in the finals like that seems that seems fast oh my god but i think i think okc is the answer [15:51] You know who's rooting for OKC to lose? [15:54] The Milwaukee Bucks. [15:56] Oh, boy. We're going right there. We're just veering right in there. It just becomes a quick Giannis panic trade team right away. Do you think that that is something –

[16:06] I'm not ready to contemplate it yet. I'm just not. I mean, it's totally against their playbook. And we go through all of this. They won the championship last year. Here they are 2-2 in the Western Conference Finals against another 60-plus win team. And it's already like, well, if they lose two out of the next three games, we've got to upend everything. I know the salary stuff. I know the consolidation. I got it. Like, we're already going there. Maybe we are. I don't know. Here's why we're going there. Yeah. Okay. Okay. [16:34] Here's why. I'll go for a drive. Let's go for a drive. No, here's why. This is it. [16:39] If I'm [16:40] If I'm okay seeing I lose this series to a Spurs team that's this young and isn't even close to being the team they are yet, [16:47] And Wembe is the difference. [16:49] And I just have no answers for him. [16:51] What do I do if I'm OKC the rest of the decade? Do I just be like, ah, we had some bad luck, or do I look at it differently and go, okay, okay. [16:58] Almost like how Minnesota, when Tim Conley went there, it was like, I have to build a team to beat the Joker. [17:04] And I think the question for OKC would be, we thought we were going to dominate the decade. That's not going to happen. [17:10] "How do we construct the kind of team [17:14] that can beat [17:15] a generational freak. [17:17] And do we have the right team right now? [17:19] Was that just a weird two weeks or do we have the wrong roster to beat this guy? [17:25] And that's where you have to think about Giannis, I think. You better know the answers to that question better. [17:29] is we just don't have the right roster with a thousand percent certainty. If after all the success you've had,

[17:37] you are willing to throw the throw, not throw it away, but mix it up to that extent based on the result of a few games. And that extent is going to be minimum one of J Dub and Chet and a bunch of picks and role players and everything you've got. It's the last big move. [17:54] you've got for a 31 year old who has not gotten through a playoffs healthy and [18:00] In quite some time. You just got to be sure. Like, yep, he broke us. Like, we got to try something now because we'll never beat him again. You got to really be sure. I agree with that. I'm not sure they're going to be that sure. But here's the wrinkle. [18:14] Parton. [18:15] Hartenstein. [18:16] I think it's a team option for next year, right? For a lot of money combined with that, they're going to have three max guys. [18:22] And they have the Dort team option. [18:24] And they have the Case and Wallace... [18:27] extension thing coming. [18:30] This was their best roster... [18:33] the way all the money work, chance to compete against a Wemby team. And if they're going to lose already and the money is about to go up, when they have all these picks, when they have the 12th pick in place, [18:43] I just feel like you have to look at it holistically and be like, okay, this is, it's reset time. Because the other thing they can do is just bring back Hartenstein at that price. [18:53] If they don't, [18:56] pick it up, he's going to go to free agency and he'll get 20 plus million from, I think, a bunch of different teams. There's teams that have cap space and trade exceptions and all kinds of things. I promise you the Celtics would be in on that with the giant trade exception they have. So it's just,

[19:10] It's a weird one, and it's a weird spot to be if you're OKC. We're like, wow, I thought we were going to dominate the last five years. Now it's 2-2. [19:16] What do I do? Flip side, San Antonio is fine. Like, win or lose this series, they're like, whatever. Like, we're happy to be here. Yeah, we could probably tweak around it. We'll figure out in February. There would be no panic at all. Okay, see, I'd have to wonder if they panic a little. [19:32] Well, first of all, it does not panic. Well, well done. Thank you for mentioning the last thing, because I was I had two editorial comments for you. And after that, number one. [19:40] really good job bringing up the Celtics, even though they haven't played in three weeks. I mean, contractually I had to, do you want to do a deep dive on Vucevic and his market and whether any cap space teams want him? We know his market. It's called the, it's called the veteran minimum. And this, I was going to say before you, I was going to say, I have to, we have to strike a deal now. [20:00] Yeah. [20:01] I mean, I won't even be your guest on the next podcast because that's how this works. But the deal is going to be. [20:06] If the Thunder win game five and go up three, two, you are not allowed to go through Spurs packages for Giannis. You're not allowed to do it. You're banned from we can't react that way to one Spurs loss. Is that it? Can we make that deal? Or are you going to go off the on that? What about what about Trey Murphy? [20:23] Fine that's fine that's reasonable That's allowed Well can we all agree [20:28] Can we all agree Giannis and Wemby just is too weird and probably doesn't make any sense whatsoever? [20:33] But weird is what you're going for, right? Like weird is what the Jazz are going for. Weird is what you have to go for if you think this is the insurmountable alien mountain that we just can't climb. And like we got to try something different. That's different. Those two guys together on defense, even though Giannis isn't the same guy he has been defensively as a help defender around the rim, those two guys together. It's something. I don't know what it is on offense, but it's something.

[20:58] What do you think happened to Wembe on game three? In game three, now that we just saw game four, what was he tired? Did they just have a bad strategy? I thought it was really weird watching in real time. I know you talked a little bit about it last night, but, um, [21:11] I didn't understand the strategy at all. I didn't understand why he was so far away from the basket. I didn't understand why they weren't playing with pace. [21:19] He's seen... [21:20] a little sluggish to me, and it was... [21:24] Really making me wonder, did that double OT game... [21:27] Was that just a huge tax for both teams, but especially with him having played that many minutes? Benny looked fine tonight, so two days later, you throw it out the window. But what do you think happened to him in game three? Was it pressure? [21:39] Was it too much adrenaline? Did OKC do something like what was your what was your take on that? I mean, without being in his head, I assume there is a little bit of all the like unquantifiable stuff you're talking about, right? Fatigue. You know, this is a guy whose minutes have been pretty monitored throughout his career. And now it's just balls to the wall. You got to play 49 minutes in game one, whatever it was. Pressure, home, playoff debut, Thunder, Chet, the whole thing. [22:09] games and then a game one of [22:11] The Thunder pretty much exclusively guarding him one way. [22:15] Then they go scrap everything, all of that, and guard him another way with big guys with the single-minded goal of we're not letting you get lobs at the rim and offensive rebounds. We are going to take your shot selection and shove it outside. And he – A, they executed well. B, I think their initial reaction was the Spurs were a little back on their heels, and Victor was a little bit back on his heels. And he kind of like went along with that.

[22:45] Well, there was just not going to be any denying that he's going to the basket, even if it's not all the way there. I'm just going to take one little dribble and reach and it's going to be a hook shot or he tried to throw the ball off the backboard to himself two times like it was just he was just not going to settle. [23:01] But look, his first three shots were still jumpers. He took a fair amount of jumpers in the game, but there was just a different... [23:07] mentality and aggression level to his game. And I think that's just, I think that's just feeling out an elite defense who threw a monkey wrench into your plans halfway through, you know, the series or whatever. I agree with that. I think there's one other piece. It seemed like they were really trying to attack. [23:24] and get to the basket and get in the paint, get to the rim. I don't know. I haven't seen the, [23:28] We tape right after these games end. [23:31] But I would guess the stats for them and the paint were a little bit different in this game. And it felt like they were like, just let's attack, throw the ball near the rim for Wemby. Let's just like go downhill a little bit more. Because that game three was just weird to watch them. It always felt like they were either going backwards or sideways and never like going toward the rim. [23:52] The Chet piece, though. [23:55] He made all NBA today. [23:57] Yeah, what's our collective level of remorse for Jill and Duren over Scotty Barnes at this point after the playoffs? For me, zero. I'm not taking any shit for that. I'm voting centers every year for each team. And until as long as I have a vote, I'm not changing because we decided to make this –

[24:15] like Little League, where everybody gets their participation trophy to be in an All-NBA team. I'm not throwing away 75 years of history. [24:22] because they stupidly decided to change the rules. I want a center or somebody who can resemble a center. I want each of my teams to kind of look like a basketball team. Okay, I don't want to detour down Jalen Duren. No, I'm just saying, but it's a regular season award. I have no regrets. [24:37] Now, let's talk about shit. [24:41] I thought he was a little better than this. And maybe he's in a funk. But I really was more of a believer than what I'm seeing. And I don't mean to do the... [24:50] the morning TV show, Chet Holmgren's gotta step up! I'm not doing that. I just honestly thought he would have more of an impact than I'm [24:58] From watching him this season, I really thought he had rounded into – [25:02] you know, dead eye three point shooter, you know, [25:05] Um, [25:06] just really, really severely impactful defender. [25:10] just [25:11] Elevates your team in all these different ways. And it feels like Wimby's in his head. Like, I don't even like his body language. The only other time I remember his body language like this, [25:19] was in the Indiana series... [25:22] I felt like you could feel him sliding a little bit a couple times in that series where the pressure, you could just kind of see it. He was carrying it. [25:29] But I thought he shed that, and now it feels like Wemby's in his head. Now, in his defense, Wemby's a 7'7 alien who came out of a UFO. [25:37] Um, so I get it. I'm just saying, I honestly just thought he would play better than this. [25:42] Uh, [25:43] I think we're going to do some sort of pressure list. Yeah, we'll do that after the break. Yeah.

[25:48] But, [25:49] I mean, not to spoil one of my potential picks, depending on draft order. Chet Holmgren has 45 points in four games in this series. He took one three tonight, despite the fact that the Spurs are playing a good chunk of each of these games in like a hybrid zone defense where someone is going to be open from three. Yeah, the guy closing out to you in the corner is going to be the alien. And I get it. And we're going to hear a lot of like, well, this just isn't a Chet series. This just isn't a Chet series. The matchup stuff for him. [26:19] have to beat for the next 10 years. This is exactly what I was going to say. [26:23] At some point, you reach a stature where every series has to be your series. And Chet is at that. Defensively, he's infallible. The guy's amazing. He's going to bring that every game. He just has like there was just what there was one play tonight where they're guarding him with wings the whole game. [26:40] Right. That's just what they're doing for the most part. And he just sort of faced up and burrowed his way to like the dotted line against Devin Vassell, drew some help and kicked out the case and Wallace for the only three that case and Wallace made in the game. It's like, well, I mean, like what? We can't get a little bit when you're when Shea's game is off. When the whole offense is clogged up, you can't do like we can't get a little more of that. I know he's we do this with Mobley, too, right?

[27:10] like any big band, but like 45 points in four games. [27:15] It just is not enough. I mean, especially when you're starting to lose scores on your team game by game. It was just, [27:21] I just think it's been a weird series. All right, we're going to take a break and we're going to come back and we're going to do pressure rankings for what might end up being an awesome seven game series right after this. Did you know about one in three people with plaque psoriasis may also develop psoriatic arthritis, which causes joint pain, stiffness and swelling? [27:38] Does this sound like you? [27:41] Listen to what it sounds like to be a million miles away. [28:12] Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or if you need a vaccine. [28:17] Imagine being a million miles away. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Trimphia. Tap this ad to learn more about Trimphia, including important safety information. [28:30] This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. [28:32] Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy, seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. [28:39] New Whole Foods Market Peach Apricot Rose Italian Soda.

[28:44] Perfect for a picnic or brunch, as is their trending mango yuzu chantilly cake. [28:50] But if you're on the go, new 365 strawberry pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. [28:57] Get savings with yellow sales signs store-wide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. [29:04] Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market. [29:09] Let's do the pressure rankings then. Let's go. I'm coming back like Devin Vassell hitting a trail three on the delayed break. I like that I'm criticizing Chet and then I screwed up the break that I didn't have going into the thing. At least I didn't do something like pick my nose. Well, yeah, that was dangerous times. Do you want to pick first? It's your show. Well, you pick first and you just took [29:30] I assume Chet's your first pick, or you want somebody else? No, I would want somebody else, but I did just do a Chet thing, so we'll pretend that's my first pick. No, I'll pick first. I'll take Chet first. Okay. I think Chet has the most pressure. [29:43] And the biggest spotlight on him now as we head into the rest of this series of... [29:49] Where is it? He just, especially on the heels of the LNBA thing. [29:53] I need to feel you more in this series, Chet Holmgren. [29:56] You know, we talked about this with Evan Mobley, too, and I do feel like, I know they're down 3-0, but I do feel like Evan Mobley, [30:02] went up like a half level as the playoffs went along. And I just felt like... [30:07] defensively, [30:10] Put it this way, the position therein is not Evan Moby's fault, I don't think. [30:14] And I thought he rose to the occasion. I would like to see that from Chet. So what would be your first pick for the pressure rankings? Well, I'll just steal your thunder and go straight to the top.

[30:24] Shay has had an okay series. Oh, yeah. [30:28] He's shooting 39%. [30:30] Through four games. [30:31] And less than 30% on threes. [30:35] Uh, he's, his turnovers are up. He had four turnovers tonight and a bunch of them are the same kind of like, I'm just going to kind of bulldoze my way into traffic and oh my God, all these guards are awesome. Defensively, I just fell over and I don't have the ball anymore. Turnovers. And I look, I get it. [30:51] It's Victor Woyamanyama, right? The Spurs have the one guy who can fuck up all the shit you're trying to do, all the stuff that works against every other team. [31:00] And you get into the lane, you get into all your sweet spots, and all of a sudden, there's a guy right behind you messing with your airspace back there, and this guy over here. [31:10] He's just going to have to problem solve his way out of this and, and have, and have, [31:15] If they're going to win this series, win two of the next three games, and J-Dub is going to be out and Mitchell is going to be out, and we don't know, but let's just say – [31:21] I think he's going to have to have two efficient games. They're not going to be like the crazy 16 of 23. Oh my God, this is the best guard we've seen since Michael Jordan or whatever you want to say. But like, [31:32] 10 of 20, 11 of 22. I just think he's going to have to dig his way out of this and problem solve it, especially if we'd like, we talked about before, if the Spurs aren't going to kind of half give him the answers by trapping him at half court with his, where his decision tree becomes a little easier. Uh, yeah. [31:50] Look, we were talking about a guy who's a two-time MVP, now back-to-back, finals MVP last year. We've talked all season about...

[31:57] all the historical stuff that he's on the precipice of well this is the precipice the precipice is digging out of this series and i'm not saying he's got pressure on him like i'm gonna think differently of him if they lose this series or he's been a flopping fraud the whole time or anything like that but it's just like [32:12] This is it. This is the moment where if the all-time greats find a way to, [32:17] to dig out of whatever Victor Wemenyama is doing to you. [32:22] I like how you frame that. And if he has a chance to be an all-time great, [32:27] It's moments like this when you don't have the same team that you started the playoffs with and you're playing a... [32:33] ferocious opponent. The best example ever of this is Jordan in the 98 playoffs. I was going to make the same comp. Yeah, Scotty's back goes out. [32:42] Rodman's doing whatever. He's getting drunk every off day. He's going to Vegas. And Jordan just is like, all right. And just... [32:49] But that's the greatest basketball pool we've ever had. There's been other good examples. My favorite bird season was 87 when [32:55] McHale had the foot. Parrish had an ankle. DJ had an ankle. Bill Walton couldn't play. And Bird just kept kind of throwing people on his back. [33:03] Feels like we're there with SGA. I think one thing there's, one of the narratives from coming out of this game into game five will be the officiating. [33:10] And that OKC got hosed on calls. And their fan base, and I don't blame them. Their fan base is going to say, you guys complain about us, that we get all the calls, we get the foul, we flop. Well, we didn't get any calls in game four. [33:23] And SGA got banged around by Castle and they didn't call it, but Wemby got banged around and they called it.

[33:29] And, and, uh, we want more fair treatment for MVP. So that'll be a whole narrative the next two days. [33:35] Um, [33:36] With that said, [33:38] I'm just not really that afraid of leaving some of the guys open that were out there. [33:43] right? Like, [33:45] I'm okay with Wallace wide open. [33:47] I'm okay with Lou Dort. [33:49] Caruso is the Josh Hart of this team. It's like you're going to live with it until he makes a couple. [33:54] They had Williams. Kenrick Williams was out there at one point hitting corner threes. But I just don't know who I trust on that team. Isaiah Joe seems like their instant three guy, but they don't seem to go in that often anymore. [34:06] And then Wiggins would be the other one, but [34:08] I just think they're going to guard him the same way they did tonight, and he's going to have to be awesome. If you're doing same-game parlays, the SGA points with the OKC win would be the reliable one, I think, for Game 5. [34:21] I think those Kenrich Williams corner threes are really interesting plays to go back and rewatch because – [34:27] The Spurs found a bit of a roadmap tonight. And look, the roadmap is having Victor Webidama, but this roadmap was – [34:34] Shay, you pick your matchup at the top of the arc, like 35 feet away. You want to run a screen and roll and get Champagne on you or Vassell on you or someone you feel a little more comfortable with, Fox, Vassell. [34:44] Then you do Harper Castle. Fine. We'll give you the switch. You're going to beat that guy off the dribble. Cool. Like beat him off the dribble. We're not going to double you. We're not even take your two because if you beat a guy off the dribble one on one, it's not like that guy disappears. He's going to be right on your hip at the cadence shave plays. And then you're going to get to 16 feet.

[35:04] And when you get to 16 feet, a couple of things are going to happen. Thing number one is the alien is going to be in your airspace a little bit. Thing number two is there might not be a double team, but you're going to see the guy on your right and the guy on your left. [35:16] kind of on their toes, half stunting, getting in your field division, messing with your mind. And those reads, those moments, I don't know what the answer is. When you're in that kind of sandwich of like four guys all around you and one of them, Victor Wembenyama, and you haven't been given a trap 30 feet from the rim, which just unleashes the pass, pass, pass threes they've gotten. But that's where those Kenridge Williams threes in the right corner came out of, is that moment just like that. [35:46] play all their shooters and hope that they make enough of those threes that they get san antonio out of that because i don't know what she's supposed to do in that airspace or how to get him [35:57] in a different airspace against that defense. Like there was that one floater he took where you could see him thinking like, I'm shaking. I got to get something in this space. And it was just this moon ball, one handed, right-handed moon ball. I had no shot. [36:09] at going in. And it was like, yeah, you don't see a player of his skillset. Look that, [36:15] Um, [36:16] like unleash a shot that like is a no chancer from 13 feet away. [36:22] Jalen Williams. [36:23] Not the injured one, the center. One for seven from three to nine. [36:28] McCain was 0 for 5. [36:30] Isaiah Joe is two for seven. [36:32] Dort was 0 for 1. Caruso took one shot, I think, right?

[36:36] Chet was a one. Yeah. Caruso, uh, [36:38] One too many greatest role players ever segments for him on podcasts and TV shows last two days. The gods had to like. [36:45] I had to like ding him with the hammer. But those shots, I thought for the most part, were pretty open. [36:51] And they just didn't make them. They missed 31 of their first 35 threes, right? Dort has 15 points in the whole series. And I know we're not going to him. I think he has two threes. And I know we're not going to him for points. Like, that's not what he does. [37:07] But the Thunder... [37:09] when they're rolling and when they won the championship, there's just a lot of Lou Dort two for five, three for seven kind of games where he just makes just enough to make it hurt. And he has two in four games. [37:25] That's somebody that I don't feel like will be in the Thunder next year. [37:29] Team option. [37:30] They've got to put money somewhere. It's a different conversation. All right, my next pressure pick. [37:39] You know, you just took the best guy on OKC. I was going to say, I've left you with not much to do. Yeah, it really has to be Wemby. [37:46] And normally I would say, eh, he's 22 and... [37:50] He's playing with house money at this point. These playoffs have already been a massive win for him. [37:55] But A, they have a chance to win the title. B, they have a chance to win the title. [37:59] We saw him get a little... [38:01] spooked in game three, I felt like, or whatever was going on with him. So it's not like he's

[38:06] We know he's human because if he wasn't human, he would just be rolling through the league every game. [38:11] But I wonder as we get closer and closer to the end of this, [38:15] and the spotlight gets bigger. His tendency is the hotter the spotlight, the better he plays. So we'll see. But it just feels like if he has a game like he had in game one or even a game like he had tonight, then – [38:29] I feel like they're going to win this series with the injuries on OKC's side. [38:32] kind of up to him. What's your next one? Yeah, if he's the best guy by a significant margin, obviously that's a [38:38] That's a big one. I was going to cheat and just go the collective of Fox Harper Castle. And only because... Oh, the guard crew. The guard crew only because... [38:49] keeping the turnovers down is the single best way to get yourself into a game against the Thunder. And they did that tonight. And it's been a little up and down throughout the series because two of those guys have played limited minutes in a couple of games and Castle's been overtaxed. But, [39:03] If... [39:04] If like, [39:05] I mean, you would want to single out Fox because he's the vet, the experience guy. But I just think the three of them together have to have a very clean game. Two more very clean games. Yeah, I would have taken Castle with my next pick for... [39:19] Um, just because of some of the stuff I talked about on my pod on Thursday about, um, I'm [39:24] the Westbrook 2008 to 2016 season. [39:28] Um, [39:29] That side where he's just [39:31] You love everything he does, but there's... [39:33] There's a couple of times he gets a little out of control, a little sloppy. Now that Fox is there, it feels like that goes away. My next guy would be McCain.

[39:40] Because they've been on that mid-show and they don't have Jalen Williams. And I thought he... [39:45] He just didn't have it tonight. He was terrible. [39:47] And this was after a weekend of everybody shitting on Daryl and oh my God, and I can't believe they traded him. So where'd you stand on that trade when it happened? [39:55] I was surprised. Um, I was certainly surprised that it was the way Philadelphia chose to save money. Um, [40:03] I was... [40:04] I just, I wouldn't give up a player that had showed me what he showed. [40:09] in albeit 20 whatever games as a rookie. I was kicking myself for not anticipating the Thunder being the team to overpay and get him. It was just such a perfect trade and such a perfect fit. He's sort of like their... [40:22] super duper version of Isaiah Joe not not the shooter that he is but someone who with a lot more ball handling juice and kind of moxie to his game um I understood I understood why the Sixers did it um yeah and that they got more return than they were going to get ever trading Jared McCain because he was not playing for their team uh which is also their fault but and that he was trapped behind those two guards who were going to be their franchise mainstays but I don't know it seemed like [40:52] to me. [40:53] Thank you. [40:54] Yeah, so... [40:56] He wasn't playing for them, and I think the... [40:58] The case was that his stock was only going to get worse. [41:02] And you're cashing in on these picks that are easier for track. We've heard the arguments. [41:06] The question remains to me is why wasn't he playing more? It's not like he was on the 86 Celtics.

[41:12] And Maxey was playing 40 minutes a game and Edgecombe was playing like 39. [41:15] So even if you say, well, who's behind those guys? It's like, well, so what? [41:19] You still have 96 guard minutes per game. [41:22] You still have an 82-game season plus playoffs. [41:25] with, you know, injuries and all the wear and tear of a season. Like, [41:29] Why wouldn't you want to have three good guards? And... [41:33] It felt like Nurse probably quit on him a little bit, and it was only going to get worse. [41:38] And it's like, well, if we get to the offseason, we won't even be able to get a first for him. [41:43] But I just, it was a weird one because he did so well last year as a rookie. [41:47] It's not like it's, oh, it wasn't like a Cam Reddish thing. [41:51] It's like, oh, he's got so much potential. He was so good in high school. Jerry McCain was good last year before he got hurt. So we're traded. And I get it that they wanted the assets, but... [42:01] Wouldn't it be suspicious to you if OKC was like, "We love Jared McCain." [42:06] Here are a bunch of picks for him. [42:08] That would be a fucking red flag. It's like, [42:11] Maybe we should keep this guy. Preston really wants him. Like, should we be reevaluating this? [42:16] Yeah, you wonder if Sam Preston is like, yeah, he's probably not going to be in our rotation, but it's a nice flyer for us. Hey, look, we have all these extra picks. Yeah, just take some of our picks. We'll take them off your hands. And here he is in the rotation. But to your point, three-point shooting has kind of cooled off even in his big game. In game three, it was mostly twos. Yeah. And he took a ton of shots, which is fine. They needed guys to take a ton of shots. It's a good pick. Because if it's not those two guys, J-Dub and AJ, then it's got to be – someone among this group is going to have to give you –

[42:46] 18 to 22 points like it's just it's okay well case and wallace was five of eight from three it's gonna have to be one of those guys [42:54] What do you have for your next pick? Do you have anybody left? Well, look, I mean, I don't know. We haven't taken a coach. [43:00] Well, I mean, one coach just won the championship a year ago, and the other coach is a, you know, was a former interim, now permanent fill-in for one of the greatest coaches of all time. And this team won 60-whatever games. I don't think there's any, I don't think any seats are getting hot. I'll go, I'll go, like. [43:19] this is going to be near and dear to your heart. I don't know if the nuns can go to every game, but I just, I just, it's not his fault. It's not his fault. [43:29] But Luke Cornett, minus nine in 13 minutes, I will just put him in as the symbol of... [43:36] Even in this blowout game, the non-Wemby minutes are just – it's Jokic now where it's just like, I don't know what the best lineup combination is. Do we throw all the guards out there? But I'll put him in as the unfair standalone symbol of those minutes. I thought Cornette was okay today. He was good. This was the best game of the series, I think. [43:58] I'm going with the... [44:00] the two ladies who, uh, [44:02] Their bodies from the neck down were just on camera behind Mitch Johnson. [44:06] And there was some commotion about them on the internet heading into the game. Yeah, this wasn't the first time. [44:13] Um, and, uh, and I think it's going to become a talking point. I think people are going to be looking forward to game six, certain types of people on the internets.

[44:21] that enjoy these things. But it was certainly... [44:24] It was certainly interesting every time they cut to Mitch Johnson, what was going on behind him. [44:28] So you're saying they're under pressure? They're under pressure, yeah, because now people are expecting it for game six. Like the Spurs are up 3-2. [44:37] Yeah. Did you see I know you're a fan of watching. We can we like the way we watch games. We see the in arena entertainment sometimes during the commercial break. Did you see Mark Henry's appearance tonight? [44:52] I did not. Well, I mean, if you want to talk about someone who's under pressure, I would nominate Rumble the Bison. The Thunder mascot was at this game in San Antonio. And unless I took acid and hallucinated it in one of the commercial breaks, they had Mark Henry come out from the stands. And I was like, I don't know, like, what's Mark Henry doing here? What's going to happen? And he chair shotted Rumble the Bison and then kicked him a little bit on the ground. [45:22] while the Spurs Coyote, like freaking Jimmy Hart with the megaphone, was like jumping around, taunting Rumble the Bison. So my question for Rumble the Bison is, [45:31] Why did you agree to this? Why are you at this? Yeah, you're losing to Mark Henry. You didn't you didn't think like, oh, the Spurs are being so nice, inviting me to the game. My mascot friend must really love me. You didn't think the setup was in play. And how are you going to respond? Is the Coyote getting in? Right. Is the Coyote getting kidnapped? Like, how are you going to respond to this? You can't just let this stand. [45:50] Maybe they're doing a home and home.

[45:52] Is that possible? Now he has to go to OKC. [45:56] Um, [45:59] I had a couple side note things. And then I want to ask you who you think is going to win game five. [46:04] So there's a lot of role-player. Caruso, where he stands in the role-player. [46:09] role player all time rankings all that stuff you see the best role player of the 2020s best role player of the century [46:15] Reggie Miller and the pregame show. [46:18] was talking about how important role players are, and then proceeded to list multiple guys who aren't role players, who were actually just really good players, who were like borderline LNBA guys. I didn't see this. He was going backwards. [46:28] And he was like, [46:30] 2024 Derek White. [46:33] And then I was like, ah, Derek White's not a role player. I just... [46:37] There's a specific type of role player of Mount Rushmore that I think we have to discuss. [46:44] And the first person who has to be mentioned anytime the conversation happens is Robert Horry. I just want to say that as a PSA. [46:51] to everybody who likes basketball, everybody has a platform. Robert Horry has to be the first person you mentioned. It can't be Alex Caruso. It can't be Derek Fisher. It has to be Robert Horry who won seven titles. I put him in my pyramid of my basketball book, [47:05] he's the only world player that made it. [47:07] because he had so many big moments that I wrote this thing about. And I was like, if I told you the Robert Horry game is on ESPN classic, [47:15] you wouldn't know what game I was talking about. Is he on the Spurs? It could be seven games. Is he on the Lakers? Give me the team, and I'll try to guess what game it is. So Robert Horry has to be first, and he's the perfect example of a role player.

[47:26] where it doesn't matter if he's getting his stats... [47:29] He always has a knack for getting better when it matters. He's always doing the dirty work. And that's, to me, a definition. Derek White's like, [47:36] star. He's a really good player. Iguodala is an interesting one. We're on Golden State. Golden State Iguodala became a role player, like an overqualified role player. [47:45] I think the four best... [47:48] Arhori. [47:50] Iguodala until Caruso. And I want to add the Caruso combo really quickly. [47:54] Hori, Warriors Iguodala. [47:56] Um, [47:58] Derek Fisher. [48:01] and Michael Cooper. [48:03] Now, this is my lifetime, so I'm not doing Casey Jones, Satch Sanders, people like that. But I think those are the four. And then apologies to... [48:10] Bobby Jones, who I think was better than a role player. I actually think he was like a notch above... [48:16] Mary Ellie is definitely there. Danny Ainge, I don't know where to put him. Kiss of death, Mario. Mario Ellie is one of my all-time favorite role players. He's in there. And then Caruso. But does Caruso crack the top four? [48:30] for you, like post-merger. [48:33] Because he's got the title on the Lakers. He's got the title of the OKC. He has a chance to win another one. If you get three, you're really in a different conversation now. You know who has three with three different teams is Danny Green, also a very good role player. Danny Green's another good one. Of recent vintage. Yeah, I'm going to add him. [48:48] Add it to the list. That's a great one. I think we need parameters, to your point about Derek White and even Andre Guadalla. [48:54] Derek White received all NBA votes today. The balloting came out. He received a few third-team all NBA votes.

[49:02] I don't know if a role player can receive all NBA votes and Iguodala is an all-star. Like I did do. Are we allowing all-stars like one time, two time all-stars drew holiday. Is he a role player? We do. We got to throw them out. [49:14] Well, so I guess the question is, if you're one of your best four players on your team, are you a role player? [49:20] I think the fourth best player could be, in a lot of cases, a quote-unquote role player. I think it has to be five through nine. Okay. I'm fine with that. I'm just saying, like, Iguodala was a 20-point scorer in an all-star. I believe he made an all-star team in his early one, maybe in his Sixers era. Maybe I'm wrong. Like, J'mon Green's another one. Not a role player. Like, don't put him in this. It has to be like a Mara-Eli... [49:45] The team could win with or without the person. They could probably survive, but the person... [49:49] is the cherry on the sundae. [49:51] you know, [49:52] Thank you. [49:53] Who's your favorite random role player ever? [49:56] Who's your guy who just never really landed on the right team? Josh Hart, by the way, is another role player. Mount Rushmore, potentially, but he hasn't won a title. That's a good one. He's [50:06] He's right at the point, though, is he... [50:10] too good for role player status. I don't know. He's not a top four guy on his team. [50:15] But is there a guy that you were like, man, if he'd only just landed on the right team? I'm going to just throw three names at you. Just that you have no preparation. You're just I didn't prep you at all. Trevor Ariza. [50:27] Well Trevor Ariza won one though He gets one for 09 so he gets to at least Be in this little club SNL five timers club you get the jacket At least he might he had better Years than this because of the teams he was On but I just had the softest of Soft spots for Lofonzo Ellis Um

[50:45] Oh, interesting. I like that one. Same era, same team. [50:49] I just like late 90s me was like, man, these teams should be trying to get the Sean Leonard on their team. He's like, just he's just a random like a Mario Ellie kind of guy tough like he got him at one point. I just for some reason, I just loved Sean Leonard. This just right again, random names. [51:08] I have one that never gets mentioned anymore and should is James Posey. [51:13] Oh yeah. Two out of three years, won the title doing awesome role player stuff. Um, [51:20] There's other versions of it, right? There's the Eddie House type. I wouldn't say that fits for this. Fisher was an amazing one. Fisher had... [51:27] Just one of the most bizarre careers ever. I think he's like second or third most playoff games ever. [51:33] was on all these different teams. Even when OKC, who's basically a dead body on OKC, and OKC's like, well, it's still Derek Fisher. [51:41] Maybe he still has it. [51:43] And they were still out wrong with them. Okay. Well, can I, can I throw another name? We're going to name some guys territory. [51:51] Did Nick Batum ascend beyond this at his Portland prime? [51:55] Never won the, yeah, well, he's a classic, never, did he even make a finals? [52:01] I don't think so. [52:04] All right. Well, we named some guys. That was fun. Tayshaun Prince? Shout out to Tayshaun Prince. Oh, Tayshaun Prince is a fantastic guy. He counts, right? Oh, my God, he counts. Yes. Okay. Great. [52:14] Who do you have winning game five?

[52:17] Yay. [52:19] I picked Thunder in seven. I'll pick the Thunder when game five. I don't, I don't, you, someone asked me this. I was at the Knicks game the other day, game two. And people are like, Oh, do you think it's going to win? Who do you think? So I'm like, let me just, let's just go through what's happened in the last two weeks. Cleveland, [52:33] with a chance to close out the Pistons at home in Game 6, gets their asses kicked by a million points. And it's like, oh, the Pistons have all the momentum. They're going home for Game 7. They lose by 30 points. Like, the individual games, I don't know. I'm just going to say the Thunder because I picked the Thunder, but I will say... [52:49] something in my you know what no forget it spurs spurs figured something out tonight and the thunder rattle i'm gonna go spurs [52:56] I'm sticking with Thunder and 7. [52:59] I think Spurs, I could... [53:01] I would lean toward them game five because of the injuries. I don't think it'll mean they win the series. [53:08] That's where I would land. [53:09] Um, [53:11] Okay. [53:12] I think we're almost time to bring Sean Fennessey in. [53:16] to talk about the next. [53:18] But before... [53:19] As we, as we, as Sean warms up in the bullpen. [53:23] here. [53:25] Um, [53:27] What are you, on a scale of one to 10, [53:32] What are you prepared for with Cleveland in the offseason if they get swept? [53:37] I mean, everything, anything. I mean, I don't. Do they have one person? You'd be like, no way they're trading that dude. [53:44] Um, [53:45] No. [53:46] Do you?

[53:48] So if they brought me in as a conciliary... [53:51] Okay. [53:53] Mobley would be my one keeper. [53:56] I'd want another year with him. I liked how he played in the playoffs. And I just feel like I hang nothing on him. [54:03] And if I'm giving up Mobley, I have to get somebody else. I'm not trading Mobley for Giannis. [54:07] That's an absurd trade. There's no way they should do that. It's crazy because last year I suggested that would be the trade. All the Bucs fans got mad at me. Why is it absurd? [54:15] I just wouldn't do it. I don't think Giannis is changing the destiny of the Cavs winning the title. I don't think that was their issue. Their issue was that they have a backcourt of Donovan Mitchell and James Harden who can't guard any guards. Well, I was just playing devil's advocate because the argument for it, which you can find people who would make, I would be very hesitant to do it too and probably not because then I've just made myself in two deals. [54:45] window with Donovan Mitchell and Giannis. That's interesting, but I don't know that I've seen enough from this team that [54:52] To be like, well, we're, you know, we're so close. [54:55] If Brooklyn called and said, we'll give you the sixth pick, [54:59] In our 2029 first. [55:02] For Mitchell. [55:03] We'll just take them off your hands. I would do it. No way. [55:07] No way for who? [55:08] You're doing that as Cleveland? Yes. [55:11] I mean, look, you like that even blinking. You like all those guys at six, 20, 29 first. I'm assuming Brooklyn is, I mean, look, all the pick values are going to change. And I save 50 million and all the luxury tax stuff. And do I think Mitchell is going to be on my team two years from now? Is he going to stay?

[55:26] I'm doing that. Well, I'm doing that. [55:28] Okay, so you gave your consigliere self [55:33] knowledge of Donovan Mitchell's plans that I personally don't have. And he said all the right things about Cleveland. I wanted to stay in Cleveland. He signed extensions there before. [55:41] But, you know, there is an interesting conversation to be had of like, [55:46] is, [55:46] With all these guys, really, is the next contract going to be worth it? [55:50] Um, [55:51] Thank you. [55:52] I'm resetting I made a run at it it didn't happen [55:56] I have a chance to get an all-NBA guy in this draft. I keep Mobley. I reset. I reset my tax. [56:02] I lick my wounds and I get ready to make another run at it with the younger team. I would is where I would land. [56:08] I would love to still have Darius Garland in that scenario, but alas, I do not. [56:15] Ready to soundtrack your summer? With Red Bull Summer All Day Play, you choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end DJ, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track. [56:31] Red Bull Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit redbull.com slash bright summer ahead to learn more. See you this summer. [56:40] At first, I didn't think it was real. I woke up to this blinding light, and I was transported to another place. Pluto TV! Then I heard a voice. Come with me if you want to live. There were thousands of movies and shows, and they were all free. The truth is ours. It's just so beautiful. On Pluto TV, free streaming of Terminator 2, Fringe, Arrow, The 100, and The X-Files may cause excitement, loss of sleep, and sudden belief in extraterrestrials. No credit cards or alien encounters necessary. Pluto TV. Stream now. Pay never.

[57:10] Not. [57:11] But alas, you know who we do have is Sean Fennessey. Oh, boy. [57:16] Yes, what's up? [57:18] So, [57:19] I owed Sean Fennessey this appearance. [57:22] Because we've known each other for 14 years. I've made 100 million Knicks jokes. [57:27] He's also come on my pod many times after sad... [57:30] makes events. [57:32] I feel like almost exclusively, almost every time you've come on, something terrible has happened with the Knicks. They've had a bad loss. [57:38] They've done a dumb trade. [57:41] Now everything's flipped. [57:43] So you have the floor. Just tell us how it feels. Not today, Bill. It's Memorial Day weekend. I've been drinking. [57:49] I'm feeling really good right now, man. We did it. I feel like I want to go get a glass of wine and come back and just really savor this. Well, you know, it's funny. The last time I was on was the last. [58:01] bad moment I've had as a fan of this team. It's amazing. I came on after, what was it, game three of that Hawks series? And we could not have been more low. Two brutal one-point losses. And look at us now. We're flying, Bill. [58:16] 10 in a row. Some interesting stats, Zach, with this 10 in a row and the point differential. [58:21] And stuff about [58:24] Teams, like if they pull up the sweep tomorrow, teams that have only lost twice heading into a finals. [58:29] Some pretty interesting teams on the list. [58:32] I, [58:33] To me... [58:35] I thought whoever won this West Series is winning the title. [58:39] And now you see the attrition on both sides.

[58:42] in this West series, I don't even know who's going to be playing next week. Whereas the Knicks are going to be nice and rested and, [58:49] It's just feeling pretty magical. I don't know, Zach, where's your head at with this next thing? You talked about it a little last night. [58:54] I said it after the Philly series. They can win the championship. Um, [58:58] you know, [58:59] I think the Spurs is a coin flip. I think full strength Thunder is, I think I said, like 25%, 30% chance the Knicks could win. [59:07] Obviously, the Thunder aren't at full strength. I think this is a legitimately... [59:11] Really good team. [59:12] that has found... [59:14] whatever they needed to find and are in this zone now that I don't think they're coming out of it. I don't think there's a crisis around the corner where all of a sudden they lose their rhythm or, you know, Towns all of a sudden wants more shots or whatever it is that would disrupt their rhythm. I don't I don't think that's coming. I think this is the team. [59:30] And this is the level of play we're going to see going forward. And I think they're just a strange team. Like Brunson is a strange guy. [59:38] to game plan for towns at the five is, is a really interesting, tough look to deal with. And when they put sham it in, it's really tough to deal with. They're just, they're an unusual team that plays it an unusual cadence. And I, I think, [59:51] they're going to sustain this level of play. I think they can win. I said after the Phillies series, they can win. This is not, this is not, you know, I was at game one, [59:58] Knicks Cavs. [1:00:00] And it was the day after game one Spurs Thunder. And there was like some snickering going around about from some of the people, you know, some of the league figures, agents, et cetera, in attendance, not people with the teams. So, yeah, that was a nice win by the Knicks. A nice comeback. But like the real finals is happening over there. And I was like, I don't think that's true. I just don't think that's true anymore. I think they can win.

[1:00:22] Sean's head's going to explode. I... [1:00:24] I've been turning this over in my head, obviously, a lot. And I was just in Europe for 10 days and watching games at 2 o'clock in the morning and trying to wrap my head around what was really going on here. And I was afraid to come back to the United States, to be totally honest. I was nervous that if I came back... [1:00:39] things would go awry. And then I just watched [1:00:41] yesterday's game in normal Pacific time and everything again, just, [1:00:46] They just seemed different. And I remember watching them in February, and Bill, we probably were texting about it back then, when they just seemed not together. It was unclear what Towns' role really was on the team. He was doing the same dumb defensive lapses and stupid fouling that he's been doing for years. [1:01:03] the first decade of his career. And things came together near the end of the season. They started playing better in the last 10 or 15 games of the year. They did win the NBA Cup. It's not like they did win 50 games. And, you know, it's not like they weren't. [1:01:14] consistently good this year. But, you know, I think also some things broke right for them in the playoffs. I think it's nice that... [1:01:23] The Celtics had to play an incredibly inspired Sixers team who were desperate to beat the Celtics. The Pistons, I think, were a paper tiger all season, but they also did not particularly have answers for the two teams that they played. [1:01:36] And... [1:01:36] I got to give it up to Mike Brown, man. I don't know how much you guys have been talking about it, but... [1:01:40] He's done stuff with his team that [1:01:42] Tibbs was not doing. And it was controversial, especially in New York, whether or not Tibbs should have been fired. [1:01:48] And it's a huge freaking relief to me that he was, even though I think he's responsible for rebuilding this franchise in a lot of ways, because Mike Brown is flexible, man. And he plays the bench and the bench has been a huge part of this run. The fact that they're so deep. I remember I was talking to CR before the Sixers series and he was like, well, you guys aren't deep. And I was like, that's wrong. Like this, this team routinely plays eight guys, sometimes nine guys in playoff games. And...

[1:02:12] I don't know if you guys have been watching Landry Schammett for the last three weeks, but [1:02:16] He looks like an elite bench player in the NBA. It's been amazing. [1:02:20] Kyrie completely quit on him when he was on Brooklyn. I remember feeling like he was on his way out of the league. I was looking... [1:02:27] So this has been a 10-game odyssey to get to the point they got to yesterday. [1:02:31] I was so impressed by how they played yesterday. And you look at the box score. [1:02:36] And it's like, if you were just drawing on a map what the ultimate next box score would look like, [1:02:40] Brunson had 30. OG and Bridges had 23 and 21. Bridges was 11 for 15. And you felt him the whole game. [1:02:48] Right. He was just [1:02:49] he was either running the floor or he was running in little open spaces in the half court. He was just [1:02:54] You felt him, whereas most of the season it felt like he was just in the corner with his hand up or not doing anything. Towns was 13, 8, and 7 with zero turnovers. [1:03:04] Hart was 12-9-5 with four steals. [1:03:07] And Shamit had 14 off the bench. They were 11 for 28 from threes. They shot 55%. [1:03:12] And that actual ball movement, [1:03:14] It's like these six guys make sense together. And then you throw McBride and Mitch. Now you have eight. [1:03:20] But it was... [1:03:21] Watching this, I was like, [1:03:24] It felt a little 2004 range Pistons to me. [1:03:29] Which is interesting because I think that was the model for how they built this team. It was Leon Rose and World Wide West. [1:03:36] Wes was a huge Pistons guy. He was a Detroit guy. And that model of just bringing in competitive veterans...

[1:03:42] Guys like hitting the right points of their careers, [1:03:46] Guys are going to sacrifice... [1:03:47] And you go through the moves they made. [1:03:50] Like the Pistons... [1:03:52] They had Ben Wallace. They signed Billups and traded for Hamilton in the same summer. They drafted Tayshaun. But then the big move was they fired Rick Carlisle and hired Larry Brown. [1:04:01] It's basically what the Knicks did with Tibbs, right? And then the Rasheed Wallace deadline trade was the other one. [1:04:07] The Knicks... [1:04:08] They had some luck with Dallas fucking up the Brunson thing. [1:04:12] Right. That was a four for 55 Zach. [1:04:15] For Brunson, Dallas could have locked them down. [1:04:18] There's a whole, I don't think we have time to dig into the whole Jalen Brunson, who said what, when, what was offered when, why wasn't it offered when. It's outrageous that Dallas lost him. Yes, there was a time where they could have locked him down for that. And if they had been a little more proactive, I think they probably could have. [1:04:36] They signed Hartenstein, who was like a stopgap. But the other big lucky break for them was the Mitchell-Utah trade. [1:04:42] which I forgot the details. Do you remember what the holdup was on that trade, Sean? [1:04:46] No, what was the holdup? [1:04:48] The jazz... [1:04:50] really wanted Grimes in the trade, [1:04:53] And the Knicks wanted quickly in the trade. And it became like, well, it's either three unprotected first or two first and are protected, depending on who is in it. [1:05:01] And then they said, fuck you, and took the Cleveland trade. [1:05:05] Zach, if they have Mitchell and Brunson, does that team make sense to you? Plus, you don't have all the extra picks to trade for Bridges. I was also going back and rereading...

[1:05:13] The Donovan Mitchell trade [1:05:15] stuff for different reasons. But I remember thinking at the time, and Ian Begley is and was the most plugged in Knicks guy at the time, and he had a lot of the details about, well, this offer was made here at this timeline, and was there a pick here? And it's just like, it just made me think. [1:05:33] Thank you. [1:05:34] Did the Knicks really want to do this? Right. They wanted to do it on their terms almost versus actually wanting to do it. Because they knew – [1:05:43] The question you just asked me about like these two guards, small score first, because this actually going to work. And if we use all these assets here, what do we have left for stuff down the line? [1:05:54] I look, I'm sure there was part of their front office that really wanted to do it. And there was debate internally about this pick, that pick. But the bottom line is they did not go as all in as they needed to go all in. And I think it unquestionably saved them. It unquestionably the roads not taken for them are are that are Embiid. And obviously, Giannis is the one that happened to Sean's point halfway through the season. [1:06:18] All the discourse was, well, they blew with McHale Bridge. They don't have picks for Giannis. They're hopeless. And, you know, they're just kind of stuck. I was re-listening to... [1:06:26] the live show I did in Brooklyn because I felt at the time it was mid-March and I felt like the whole show was me giving Knicks fans a pep talk like no you guys are there you guys are third in offense six in defense yeah I know it's been a little rocky but like who who's beating you in the east and because it felt like Knicks fans needed a pep talk I was like I don't I could tell you that much

[1:06:50] I didn't have huge expectations for the playoffs. I thought they should definitely beat the Hawks. And then after that, I thought it was a crapshoot because... [1:06:56] I thought any, any of those top five teams, a lot of things also like the magic, not having to deal with the magic and then the magic kind of falling apart was another thing that went their way. There were a million things that went their way to the point about Donovan Mitchell. Um, [1:07:10] If they had acquired him and they tried to pair them together, I think it might have been a somewhat similar situation that Brunson had to contend with through the first... [1:07:16] four seasons of his professional career, essentially playing behind Luca. And so you could say like the Mavs mismanaged that scenario, or maybe there was nothing they really could have done by just having the [1:07:27] a superstar backup point guard behind... [1:07:30] the single best backcourt player in the sport, but... [1:07:33] You just can't overstate [1:07:37] who and what Brunson is. There has never been a New York Knick like him. There are very few players in the NBA like him. I think maybe now, finally... [1:07:49] NBA fans who, even if they deep down hate the Knicks, you can't watch him for nine consecutive fourth quarters and consistently watch him just take over games and be unguardable. I mean, his shot making, he's been doing this since he came to the Knicks. This is not new. It's the supporting cast that you just described, Bill. It's those guys, those pivotal moves that they've made, acquiring OG, acquiring McHale, building up Robinson so that he could play 65 games in a season, acquiring Cat. All of that stuff has changed. [1:08:19] same guy who scores 27 points a game, who is fearless down the stretch, who always puts the team on his shoulders. And when the team isn't going well, we can point to him and say, oh, well, you know, it's it's ISO ball and it's all Brunson and he's taking nine of 13 shots in the fourth quarter. But.

[1:08:36] When they're going good and when the supporting cast looks good, that works. And it's going to, it has been working throughout this playoffs. And I genuinely, you know, you can talk about like Walt Clyde Frazier, you know, there's a Earl Monroe. It's a very short list of guys that he is now getting into the conversation with after just five seasons. Yeah. [1:08:56] I don't know. It's making my head spin. When we picked him up, I was not against the move at all. It was obviously a very savvy contract, but never in my wildest dreams did I ever think he would become this person to the franchise. [1:09:08] We all like Brunson. I think that Knicks felt like he could be this guy. I do think Liana West did feel that way. I thought that was crazy. [1:09:16] I clearly thought he... [1:09:17] I might have even said it in the pods. This guy could be one of the best three guys on a... [1:09:22] Final 14. There's no question. I didn't think he could be what he became. You're talking about [1:09:28] Like for an entire generation of Knicks fans, well, multiple generations. But if you're talking about like 30 and under Knicks fans, [1:09:35] This is like their David Ortiz, basically. If they win the title, he becomes David Ortiz. One of the things about how they put the team together... [1:09:44] They were cutthroat a couple times. The town's trade was cutthroat. [1:09:49] Randall was their guy. They brought him in. They gave him a big extension. They went and signed DiVincenzo. [1:09:56] They traded, I think what they trade Toppin to have the DiPicenzo money. [1:10:01] Villanova guy, this is our crew now. And then they had a chance to get Towns and they just like, [1:10:06] slit their throats basically, went and got towns. That was cutthroat, and then the tips firing.

[1:10:13] kind of have to do that sometimes. You know, there's a difference between being desperate and cutthroat. Those were two moves that were probably the right moves, um... [1:10:22] But it's still like, I don't know if all teams make those moves, Zach. [1:10:25] No. It's like what we were talking about earlier, where OKC is like, check, can't defend Wemby. [1:10:32] We're trading him. And it's just like, we're cutting his throat. [1:10:35] Some teams won't do it. [1:10:36] No, the Towns one was a risk, and it's one that has – [1:10:42] gone up and down uh over like halfway through the season it looked like did minnesota like kind of win this trade cats all over the place and and like randall's playing really well and divincenzo is essential and now it's like swung totally the other way but it was a bet on it was a ceiling bet it was a we need to take some risk of absorbing this contract because it if it works it's not [1:11:03] our ceiling goes up a level that Randall and DiVincenzo just can't, they need a center. You need a center and you need a five who can shoot. Um, [1:11:12] And, yeah, I mean, they've been – and Ananobi was the guy they clearly just targeted. And Brunson – I remember I was with you guys. I mean, I remember Vividly's doing on my old podcast, like, that deal was slammed. Like, really unpopular contract in a lot of corners. And I remember saying – I don't love it, but it's like a BB+. Like, Jalen Brunson's a really good player, and, like, it's a lot at that time. But, like, it's a BB-plus contract. Obviously, in retrospect, it was an A+++. What was it? Was it four for 100? What was it? [1:11:42] 106. I was on the bullish side for it, but I also was like, yeah, career average is 11 points a game.

[1:11:50] You know, it's... [1:11:52] It's definitely on the higher end. I do think we're all overlooking just a huge... [1:11:57] story here and a huge fly in the ointment. Chalamet? [1:12:02] No, even more dire than the celebrity fandom. The return of Chalamet to... [1:12:09] Being on TV and stuff. Which my dad, by the way, hates. He's like, I don't understand. Do they pay for their tickets? Why do all these rich people get free stuff? I don't like it. Even more dire. And Sean, I think you need to be worried. [1:12:20] I think you need to be on higher alert. [1:12:22] Oh, no. [1:12:22] I don't know if you know this, but the Cavs have won the shock quality battle through three games in this series. I think you guys are actually on the ropes here. I think if you look at the tracking data, it's neck and neck, but the Cavs have a slight edge in shock quality. And let me tell you. [1:12:39] I think the league is going to retroactively go back [1:12:43] and look at the shot quality and flip the results of these games. And you might be down to one tomorrow morning. I wouldn't get too excited about the finals just yet. Or the cats. It's a deceiving, deceiving three. Oh, Sean, don't don't get comfy. I did see that interview with Kenny Atkinson today, which was very amusing. Let's just say it's been passed around amongst Knicks fans. [1:13:03] Listen, I are you scared, Sean? Are you scared of what the four games portend because of this? I don't what I don't want is to say something stupid. [1:13:13] and I'm getting clipped by Cavs-busting genius on X.com.

[1:13:21] I'm very excited about how well they've played. And you know what? As a dork who looks at exit velo and hard hit rate in baseball, I do trick myself into thinking that that shit matters. But look, the Cavs just haven't been able to hit threes in this series, but also the Knicks play great defense. So yeah. [1:13:38] So both things can be true. Look, if you played those games 150,000 times, it might be a different result. Unfortunately, Sean, this is the result that actually matters, and it's 3-0. And the fact is that Timothee Chalamet was courtside for two of those games, so maybe he's in Donovan Mitchell's head. Have we considered that? Maybe he's in James Harden's head. [1:13:58] Very possible. Here's the other thing. [1:14:00] Game four is already over because there was a play at the end of game three that made me convinced the Knicks are going to sweep them. [1:14:06] That Jalen Brunson hesitation layup, [1:14:09] When all five Cavs just decided they weren't going to move anymore. [1:14:13] That's the kind of thing that happens when you're going home in two days. I don't think you can come back from that. They kind of quit. In the fourth quarter, they kind of quit. It was a quitting is what was going on. Yeah. [1:14:23] And I think the Knicks can smell it and the Knicks... [1:14:26] And Sean, this is the prologue of my book, The Secret. The next part of the problem with them during the season is everybody was having to sacrifice stuff, and there were all these different times when people didn't seem that happy about the sacrificing. [1:14:39] Those guys are all locked in now. I don't know how it happened over these last 10 games, but it happened, and that's the great thing about sports when you watch it happen in real time. I think, obviously, OG was unstoppable until he got injured, but the secret is what you already talked about, which is that Bridges shooting 75% from the field and being back to that mid-range guy, and also being really comfortable as basically the second option offensively, has just totally transformed the offense for them. The early story was Cat being point Cat,

[1:15:09] recently and Bridges just having much more usage in the offense makes them way more dynamic and scary. I mean, they're going to match up totally differently, though, with either of the two teams in the West, assuming they go forward. Like it's going to be a different looking offense and it's going to be harder, I think, for Brunson to get some of those baskets that he's been getting in the last two series. But I have to enjoy this. I mean, it's 53 years since the Knicks have won a title. It's 27 years since they've been in the NBA finals. It's 40 years since the team that I root [1:15:39] One, a title. [1:15:40] 40 years. This is very rare. And it's extremely rare to watch a team that I care about, [1:15:47] just motherfuck teams. I mean, it's just amazing how they're just dominating for the last three weeks. And so, [1:15:54] I'm such an embittered and cynical sports fan. Like, I really just got to look myself in the mirror and be like, have some gratitude, you asshole, because this is super special. Hey, I just Venmo'd you for rent. Nice. Now I can instantly spend it whether I'm checking out online with Venmo or using a Venmo debit card. Say more. More exactly. Because the more you do with Venmo, the more you get. Like earning up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash on a bundle of brands. So, order more pizza. The math demands it. Get the Venmo debit card. [1:16:24] Venmo's stash bundle terms and exclusions apply. See terms at Venmo.me slash stash terms. Venmo checkout not available at all merchants. Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. [1:16:34] This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just $19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, choose up to three streams, and follow player spotlights. Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox One. Offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions.

[1:17:03] Special. [1:17:04] I got this email from Yuval in Israel. [1:17:08] I'm going to read it to you. [1:17:10] I remember the Mavs were 2-2 in the first round against the Brandon Roy Blazers. [1:17:15] And people were saying Dirk is choking again. [1:17:18] That was before the 2011 Mavs had one of the most beloved championship runs ever. Something clicked. They went on this crazy one. [1:17:25] When Tenen won the rest of the way in the West, almost every Mavs player at a moment, Perea, Chandler, Peja, even Deshaun Stevenson, [1:17:32] He beat the villains of the league, the heat without home court. [1:17:35] The Knicks have a chance to do something similar if they take out OKC. [1:17:39] if they actually win it, [1:17:40] Will this championship be as universally beloved as the 2011 Mavs run? [1:17:46] This is an interesting one. [1:17:48] Because it's a New York team. [1:17:51] Right. Dallas. Everybody loved Dirk. [1:17:54] including Zach Lowe. [1:17:56] Everybody had kind of given up on him having a moment like that. And then he just fucking went Clint Eastwood on the 2011 playoffs and series by series just took people out. And then they took out this heat team that everybody was annoyed by. [1:18:10] Zach, do you see the parallels here? [1:18:12] If it was OKC during this whole flop thing, this moment they're having the back-to-back, and then this Knicks team that comes out of nowhere... [1:18:20] Do you think it would be as beloved as that Mavs title? Well, it's interesting you ask that because... [1:18:25] I saw Ethan Strauss write this column this week about like, basically, why is this not a bigger story that this team in the biggest city in the biggest market is doing this? And I'm like, maybe I just live in the wrong place because it's like the defining story of my life. I feel like it's a massive story. 24 hours a day.

[1:18:41] Um, so I, I think it could be, I mean, they're, they're, [1:18:45] The Knicks don't have a Dirk who's been just beaten down and been close to the mountaintop and shoved off and is entering the back nine of his career. And this might be his last chance. And that was also a collection of vets. But Brunson is as the small guy underdog and small guys aren't supposed to win titles. No, I'm just giving you the counters before I hammer it. And the other counter is there are just some people who don't like New York City and don't like New York and it's too big and all the famous people. [1:19:15] I think it would be, if not as universally beloved, almost so, and like such a rapturous moment around the league because it is New York, because it is the Knicks. And it may depend a little bit on who they play in the finals because the Thunder have a whiff of – [1:19:33] a different kind of villainousness to them uh in at least in the way they're perceived around the league it's not the same as that miami team but yeah like there are just some parts of the country fans in parts of the country who hate hate new york and be like oh boy the big bad knicks and we have to listen to everyone talk about new york and the yankees will probably win the world series and we'll do it all again well that would be terrible but i but i think i think the knicks are their own unique thing in new york city because of the sport it's the city's game

[1:20:03] damn long that I think [1:20:05] it would be as rapturous as the Vavs one. [1:20:08] I think there's one other component to this too, which is if this had happened last season, it might have felt a little bit different because it would have felt like they were vanquishing teams that they had not beaten before. So obviously that, [1:20:20] Boston series, sorry Bill, was like euphoric for Knicks fans because we were underdogs in that series for real. And that was a really triumphant series win. And then they got their hearts ripped out in game one of the Pacers series. And that series was effectively over. And obviously the Pacers have given the Knicks fits over the years in the playoffs. And so if they had gone to the finals after that run, it would have felt different than this, where they're basically dispatching a bunch of teams that they've already beaten before. The Knicks three years ago beat the [1:20:50] the playoffs. Both of those teams were seated lower than the Knicks are. It doesn't feel like as triumphant and stunning a run to the finals. And so maybe that's part of the reason why it's not getting these incredible national headlines. Also, at the very beginning of this season, I think most [1:21:06] pundits felt like the Knicks were the most talented team in the conference and probably should be at least in the Eastern Conference Finals. In fact, the Knicks owner basically set a mandate for Mike Brown and the team that they had to make the finals, that the expectation was the NBA Finals. So it's not pre-ordained per se, but this has just been talked about for 16 months as a possibility. So it doesn't feel as stunningly special. And also, I think Zach's right that

[1:21:33] New York teams are just hated. The Knicks are [1:21:36] kind of a fumbling franchise over the last half century but they're just not beloved and whatever success they have had especially in the 90s was for kind of like brute force unlikable style of play and so i think for older fans that's also burned into their brains is like this isn't a team that i love watching yeah true this team though this season i mean this playoffs they've been a lot of fun to watch i think i offensively they're pretty exciting [1:22:01] Yeah, so Dolan in the 2000s, [1:22:05] A 10 out of 10 train wreck. [1:22:07] And then the 2010s, a 10 out of 10 train wreck. That's 20 years, one fifth of a century. [1:22:14] a complete train wreck as an owner. [1:22:17] Right before COVID, All-Star Weekend, Chicago, I think Zach Lowe was there. [1:22:21] No, it's great. [1:22:23] You skipped it. I skipped it because I didn't want to get COVID. [1:22:26] Somehow I went. I went to Sundance and All-Star Weekend and the Oscars. Yeah. 0 for 3 and COVID. Sean went one for one. [1:22:34] I went to Sundance and have never been more sick in my life. So pleased to have been patient zero. I got it at the Sloan conference two weeks later. So it's not like my discipline sustained. Yeah. So they hire... [1:22:46] Leon and Wes, [1:22:48] basically three weeks before COVID. [1:22:52] And then post COVID they've just turned into a completely different franchise. And Dolan's been a good owner. Like he's, [1:22:57] He's let those guys do their thing. Supposedly he was the one that's like, we have to fire Tibbs. You guys are being too loyal to him. He's not good enough. Get rid of this guy. He's paid for a lot of money. It's been impressive. And you'd think with that, with the sphere...

[1:23:12] which has been one of the most successful entertainment things that [1:23:16] has launched probably this century. [1:23:19] Dolan's back, man. You got to hand it to him. I made a lot of jokes about him. [1:23:22] I've made a lot of jokes with my column and on the pod, but you got to hand it to the dude, man. He's got a good job. Like when was he, when did he, when was he originally good at some point? Okay. Here. I thought, [1:23:35] I really thought for a second that you were going to draw some connection from COVID-19. [1:23:41] to Dolan arriving. I thought there was going to be some sort of scientific commentary that was going to frighten me. My screen was just going to go black. The connection was going to get lost. [1:23:52] Well, as Sean knows, I don't really remember anything from 2020 or 2021. And yeah. [1:23:57] There's a chance... [1:23:58] All of us are dead right now, and this isn't actually happening with the Knicks. It's possible. I love the idea of this being your projection in your post-COVID dream state. Yeah, that's really exciting. James Dolan became a good owner. But you got to hand it to him, man. He's doing a good job. [1:24:14] Uh, [1:24:15] The New York thing's interesting because this is such a beloved team. [1:24:19] Like if you just like basketball... [1:24:21] I just really respect how they play. I think Brunson is just one of the most admirable guys we have in the league, but it is a New York team. [1:24:28] And there are a ton of New York fans. [1:24:31] And, and, [1:24:32] I don't need to tell you, Sean, when it's going well for New York fans, they have a way of letting everybody know about that. So I'll be interested to see how everybody handles this over the next four weeks. I'll just say this is the first public comments I'm making since this win streak started. I've been trying to keep my mouth shut throughout this. It's a great way to do it.

[1:24:50] I don't want to jinx it and I'm also super grateful. However, [1:24:54] Thank you. [1:24:54] Like, we deserve this. Come on. 53 years? You deserve it just for the last 20. Yeah, it was... The 2000s were fucking tough, man. That was a really hard time. Because in addition to being inept on the court, they were entrenched in controversy and scandal nonstop. I mean, it was a very ugly time to be a fan of that team. So this just feels different. And I said this to you the last year or so, Bill, but they're just... [1:25:20] normal now. They just win like 52 games every year. [1:25:24] They have one or two players who are in the conversation for all NBA. They're just like, [1:25:28] a legitimately good NBA franchise. The other thing I'll note is that, [1:25:34] Leon Rose does not speak to the press. [1:25:37] Ever, ever. [1:25:38] And that is also so strange. And so we don't even really know [1:25:43] very much about the architects of this team through this six-year period. We just know that they're making the right moves. And I would say... [1:25:52] six of the eight big moves that they've made since this new administration came in. When they happened, I was like, that's not a good idea. It was like my old... [1:26:01] you know, mixed reflexes kicked in where I was like, ah, trading... [1:26:05] randall and divincenzo i don't get that oh oh i hope og is a good deal but like he's really injury prone we're getting older in that deal that doesn't make sense oh we missed out on katie and kairi and we backfilled with julius randall as a free agent oh four years for brunson and that this is at the expense of getting donovan mitchell like all of those times because knicks fans are so beat up you could have been like well we're gonna get the short end of the stick on this

[1:26:35] pilloried as recently as April. How about a month ago? That's what I'm saying. It was like way too many picks, and now all of a sudden, two playoffs in a row were like, nope. [1:26:44] He's essential. He might even be the second best player on the team. And that's astonishing. That's like the fact that all those moves that those guys made worked out and they never once got in front of the public and were like, well, we did this. So trust us. They don't say anything. It's crazy. [1:26:57] Well, one of the reasons you know they're good is besides Brunson, the next best three guys in the team have all had moments when they've seen like they're clearly the second best guy in the team. [1:27:06] And that's when you know you have a good team. But Zach... [1:27:09] I remember doing this in the 2024 finals with Celtics-Dallas. [1:27:14] when... [1:27:16] so we're, [1:27:17] Celtics were favored, but maybe not as much as they should have been favored, considering the disparity with the records and stuff. [1:27:25] And at some point it just became math. It's like the Celtics have been this team for eight months. This is kind of who they are. [1:27:31] You look at the [1:27:33] Advanced stats for the playoffs. [1:27:35] And the Knicks have, they're plus 18.5 for 13 playoff games. That's like a small sample size. It's three different series. [1:27:43] And it includes them being down 2-1 in the first one. [1:27:47] But they have the second best defensive rating. [1:27:51] They have the best offensive rating and they have the point differential. They have all this mass stuff in their place. [1:27:58] We've always learned that should be a bigger factor when you're trying to figure out what's going to happen than we give it credit for. So I assume if they blow out the Cavs tomorrow or even just win, those numbers will still be pretty good. Do you pay attention to that, Zach, those postseason numbers?

[1:28:13] advanced metric shit? Sure. I mean, again, it's a small sample and it's so opponent specific that, you know, it can be a little, you have to be careful, but I mean, when you are, I mean, I don't even care what the numbers are when you're like, I haven't even looked when you're this dominant. [1:28:27] And you're winning by this many points every single game. Like I've seen some people. Well, who have they played? They played the Hawks who fattened up against all these lottery teams. Pretty good, but didn't, didn't hear a lot about that when it was two, one Hawks. Oh, they played the Sixers who, you know, they're injury prone and Joel couldn't sustain. By the way, I do have to give you this as a Celtics person. You got, [1:28:48] the like the week that the Sixers became the full-fledged Sixers was against you similarly five seasons ago you got like the week that the Harden Kyrie Durant Nets became the full-fledged Durant Nets also against you guys it's true uh but like I don't want to hear about any of this because if you beat three playoff teams by this much this many times [1:29:10] it says something about the group that you're in. And oh, by the way, they were third in offense and seventh in defense in the regular season. And seventh in defense with this roster is quite an accomplishment. Like it was sitting there. [1:29:21] Now, what they've done in the playoffs is a completely different thing, but... [1:29:26] They're just a really good team. [1:29:27] They caught a couple... [1:29:29] A couple small breaks, but every team gets breaks every year. Tatum and Halliburton getting hurt. [1:29:34] Giannis and B. breaking down. [1:29:36] And that's happened. That's where Intero was scheduled year after year. The one real break I thought they caught was Detroit kind of choking at the Detroit deadline, not doing anything.

[1:29:46] Because Detroit was the one team that felt like they like going toe to toe with the Knicks. They really had their number during the regular season. Why didn't they get the extra guy? And if I'm a Detroit fan, I'm going crazy right now that we're not in the Eastern Finals. See, I... [1:30:01] I get it. [1:30:03] Um, [1:30:04] 3-0 Detroit in a regular season. [1:30:06] I would have picked the Nixon six maximum without even thinking that hard about it. And I would not have thrown away the regular season stuff, but I just would not have read [1:30:18] too much into it and I think the Knicks were just qualitatively a better team than Detroit because I've seen a lot of why Leonard was on the Pistons well okay I mean I've seen a lot of like oh Detroit with I don't know they would have got a regular season and boy they blew it against Cleveland I just like I didn't like the way they were playing in the playoffs I like the way the Knicks are playing in the playoffs I don't read too much into those games [1:30:37] Um, [1:30:38] I guess you can't get too comfortable because analytically you're losing two to one. [1:30:43] Yeah, that's going to feel really bad when they sweep. And they've lost three games to one analytically. I don't know how you're going to sleep tonight, man. This is like... [1:30:53] You don't understand the month Sean's had. He goes to Cannes for the first time ever. [1:30:57] He's there for like a week and a half. As that's happening, the Knicks go on the fucking all-time... [1:31:03] Cheater. [1:31:05] It's like worm at the Chesterfield, just whipping the Russians for 24 spare hours. Yeah, but they're not cheating. That's the thing I remember. No mechanic work. No dealing from the bottom of the deck. I wish the Mets would cheat, by the way, Sean. As long as we're here. I'm in for anything. Don't get me started. Get the garbage cans out in the back. Whatever you got to do. Because I, you know. I will burn the franchise to the ground. Whatever the Knicks are doing, the Mets need to drink some of that juice. Because what the fuck, dude? Like, absolute nightmare. I'm not listening to you guys complain about baseball.

[1:31:35] has just thrown away baseball in Boston. [1:31:38] We traded a possible Cy Young guy this year for a guy who's hitting 161. Yeah, but he got you like three titles. Yeah, and then he's like, he's four. Four titles. And then he's like, you guys should be more appreciative. I should be able to do what I want. I mean, he's right. None of us feel that way. Just sell the team. The Mets are way more embarrassing. First of all, they haven't won in 40 years. Second of all, they spend $400 million on their payroll and they have the worst offense in the sport. [1:32:08] thinking about them. It's insane. Thank God for the Knicks. Thank God. If you spent money like that in basketball, your team would be good. [1:32:15] That would just mean you have really good players. In baseball, you can spend money on... [1:32:20] and then he could just immediately turn into the worst shortstop of the national league he makes 42 million dollars a year i'm sorry i did that i'm sorry it's my fault why did you bring this up this is my fault you know why i brought it up you know why i brought it up because i spent part of the day with my daughter who's now a big mets fan we went shopping together and she said the mets playing this afternoon let's check the score and it was the seventh inning this is we're at the freaking mall we're at the stamford mall on a sunday this is my life ball they used to be my [1:32:50] a heyday place checking the Mets score seventh inning and I said to her you'll never guess how many of the runs the Mets have in the seventh inning it's zero zero and we drove home we drove home listening to the game on the radio bottom of the ninth Marlins are up we pull into the driveway guys are on base we turn on the tv and airbender gives up a fucking walk-off grand slam right in our face that's why that's why I brought it up because I had a day with it

[1:33:17] I want to hear a little bit more about Bill's heyday place, the Stamford Mall. What went down there? Here was the highlight. First of all, Stamford Mall was unbelievable. But one summer, Woody Allen was filming scenes from a mall. Scenes from a mall, yeah. With Bette Midler, and they were just there. Directed by Paul Mazursky. Sometimes they're on the top floor, and it was just such a big deal for the mall. Did you approach Woody and say, I love your work? Thanks for everything? I didn't approach Woody. They had a great A&W. They had a good music. [1:33:47] The curly fries at the AMW. You could do a Sam Goody and AMW are right next to each other on the seventh floor. You could get some CDs and go get some curly fries. We had a Walden Books. It was just good times. You guys are getting into trouble. A couple of scamps hanging on Stanford Mall. Let's have two root beer floats. One of my great cinematic memories, Sean Fentessy, of the big picture is waiting in line for two and a half hours for the opening night of 1989's Batman at the Stanford Mall. [1:34:17] That's how big that is how big that movie was. The bunch of 11 to 12 year old guys like we're we're camping out basically. [1:34:24] to get into this movie. That's beautiful. [1:34:27] I saw a lot of great ones. I don't even know if they have a movie theater there anymore. Is the mall still nice? It still looks the same. [1:34:34] A lot of the stores are closed. A lot of them have become arcades, basically. And one of the anchor stores, I don't know where it might be Saks, has become the allegedly the nation's largest pickleball facility.

[1:34:49] Oh, my God. That's the worst thing I've ever heard. [1:34:53] that's like this guy who bought the trailblazers is like the biggest investor in pickleball tell you a pickleball story yeah go ahead game two nicks a team official who shall not be named says hi to me introduces me to a guy who knows joe house [1:35:08] So, hey, I know Joe House. [1:35:10] I think his name is Sam Porter and uh [1:35:15] He is the owner or founder or something of, [1:35:18] the biggest professional pickleball league. And he looked me straight in the eye and he said, I really, I really like what you guys do on the NBA podcasts. You know, you and bill have great chemistry. I can't listen as much anymore. [1:35:30] And I said, why is it? [1:35:31] I can't take Bill's slander on pickleball. It's just too much. I can't do it. So you've lost the listener because of your anti-pickleball takes. [1:35:39] I'll be on the red side of history. [1:35:42] If we lose a couple listeners around the way, it's fine. [1:35:46] Pickleball sucks. [1:35:48] What was the best movie you saw, Can-Sean? [1:35:52] Well, Club Kid stars Jordan Firstman, who is Rachel Sennett's friend from the TV show I Love LA. It's his directorial debut. He plays a guy who's a club promoter in New York City who wakes up one day and he's in his 30s and he has no money and no insurance and nothing to show for it. And 10-year-old kid shows up on his front door and is like... [1:36:11] You're my dad. [1:36:12] And he's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Because Jordan Firstman's character is gay in the film. [1:36:16] And, uh, it was funny and heartwarming and like old fashioned and beautiful. And I was like, this is like a Barry Levinson movie or like, it was kind of like big daddy, the Adam Sandler movie. And, uh,

[1:36:25] Honestly, I don't know. [1:36:26] Stole my heart. I had a great time watching it. Didn't expect it. It was great. [1:36:30] So it's like gay Kramer versus Kramer across with Big Daddy? Exactly. That's exactly what it is. Good idea. Yeah. And it's funny and sweet and excellent. [1:36:40] Zach, did Sean's projections newsletter about movies that he launched a couple weeks ago get your... [1:36:46] get your juices watered to maybe start your own version of an NBA type thing? I'm a subscriber. It's a, [1:36:53] It's been an idea I've been kicking around. I'm a little scared I forgot how to do it. I will say I was doing a chat. [1:37:00] on the subsack and literally someone asked me, I signed up for your thing. I'm really glad you're here, but I really need you to get both Zach and Bill writing again. It's really important to me. [1:37:13] And I said, I'm doing my best. So Bill, you can't just pass the buck to Zach. It goes to you too. I sent like a 180 word text today. [1:37:21] That's got me going. [1:37:24] just hammering the two fingers get going what was it about i don't know something it was about uh graduation plans [1:37:33] Oh, okay. [1:37:35] Well, that's not exactly like writing about the NBA, but it's a start. I mean, my daughter's been home for the last two weeks, and you guys have younger daughters than my daughter. [1:37:44] Um, she's 21 now and we go out and she can't wait to get carded and order a drink and just, [1:37:50] Letting you know what's coming for you guys down the road. I feel very far away from that. Yeah. [1:37:54] Yeah, they just...

[1:37:56] The happiness in their eyes as they're handing their real driver's license to a bartender or waiter. [1:38:02] um kind of like the look in your eyes right now sean about the next my version of getting carded with my daughter is when she's like dad take out your credit card so you can buy me this um there it is which is something i'm becoming more and more familiar with all right you can listen to sean on the big picture you can listen to zach on the zach lowe show [1:38:19] which will be going, you'll potentially be a game five, right? If Cleveland somehow comes back and wins one. Honestly, I just forgot that there could be a game five, to be honest with you. Yes, I would be there if it exists. [1:38:30] I honestly think it's a wrap. [1:38:32] And I think there's going to be 30 to 40% Knicks fans there tomorrow would be my other prediction. Can't believe this is happening. This is unbelievable. [1:38:39] Heard there. [1:38:40] Can't get courtsides if you're a Knicks fan. [1:38:43] Like it'll get on the ticket sites. It'll just... [1:38:46] reject you if you're not from [1:38:48] What is it like they'll forcibly remove you from the arena? They'll just reset your order. [1:38:53] But they make room for celebrities like Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey. [1:38:58] Well, we're going to have some celebs at the game tomorrow, but I don't think they'll be courtside. Sean, good luck. Congratulations. I'm glad things have turned around for you. Bill, thanks for inviting me on. Even if it partly became at the expense of my team, that's fine. We've been friends for a long time. Well, I deserve at least one goddamn thing in this life. So thank you. Yeah, after the sixth Tom Brady Super Bowl, you deserve something. All right, settle down. That's another thing that's happening for you. Tom Brady's getting super weird. This is almost like another win for you. With respect, he's been an absolute weirdo for 20 years.

[1:39:28] Zach Lowe, thanks as always. Good to see you. I will see you next Sunday. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo and Jack Wilson and Chris as well. That's it for us on Netflix. I'll be back on Tuesday. Don't forget tomorrow, Animal House on the Rewatchables. [1:39:42] Thanks, everybody. [1:39:46] Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming. If you have a problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call [redacted government id] or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call [redacted phone] for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8-HOPE. [1:40:16] or text HOPENY in New York for Louisiana. Call [redacted phone].