MURDERED: Matthew, Daniel, & Islan

[00:00] Hi, Crime Junkies. It's Britt, and I have big news. One of my favorite seasonal shows, CounterClock, is back with a brand new season, and it is wild. Host Delia D'Ambra is digging into the 2008 Lane Bryant murders. I mean, this isn't just a recap. It is a reinvestigation. She's talking to law enforcement, people from the community, even sources who have never spoken publicly until now. And you know I love a show that asks all the questions. Listen to CounterClock Season 8 now wherever you get your podcasts. [00:30] Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And Britt, it is officially Pride Month. Happy Pride Month to our wonderful listeners. And in honor of Pride Month, not only do we have a very special episode, but we also have a very special fundraiser for a nonprofit that is doing incredibly important work directly related to the issue that we're going to be discussing in today's episode. [01:00] extended store opening with our very first Pride-inspired collection. Oh, you guys, I am so obsessed with like every single piece of this collection. I love it. Same. Our fan club has already had a chance to buy the items and now they're going to be open to the general public from June 1st to June 13th, which is the longest we've ever kept the store open. It's all pre-order

[01:30] to the LGBT bar. [01:33] And the reason that we've chosen this specific group is because they are working to correct how the legal system in many states still exploits members of the LGBTQ plus community to shield killers from justice. [02:03] injustice in their cases, and it's up to all of us to incite change. These are the stories of Matthew Shepard, Daniel Spencer, and the story of Matthew Shepard. [02:12] and Islan Nettles. [02:14] Music [02:45] On the evening of October 7, 1998, an 18-year-old college freshman named Aaron Kreifels is taking a bike ride outside of Laramie in southeast Wyoming. He's a man who's been in the middle of the night. [02:55] Laramie is a small city in Albany County that's home to the University of Wyoming, and it's located right between two mountain ranges. So once you're out of the city, you're like out of the city in some pretty like rugged country area. It's beautiful, though. And since Aaron's really into mountain biking, it's the perfect terrain for him to stay fit.

[03:14] All in all, he's having a great ride until he hits a rock near a split rail fence and falls off his bike. Now, it's just a minor fall and he's not hurt. But just as he's getting up and dusting himself off, he notices something odd slumped down and actually tied to the fence post. [03:32] At first, Aaron thinks it's a scarecrow or maybe a Halloween decoration since it's getting towards that time of year. But something about this figure on the fence doesn't sit right with him. So Aaron goes to check it out. And what he finds there gives him the shock of his life. It's not a scarecrow. It is a person, beaten, bloodstained, freezing cold, and battered almost beyond recognition. [04:02] and hurries down to the first house he can find to call police. [04:06] Right away, officers rush out to the scene and they are totally appalled by what they find because it's obvious at a glance that this person has been just totally brutalized. The first officer to get there, a woman named Reggie, actually thinks the person is a child at first because they're so small. But the closer she looks, she's able to see a young man underneath his wounds. [04:30] June Sheeran reported for the BBC that despite his gruesome injuries, the young man is miraculously still breathing. While other officers and first responders arrive on the scene, Reggie tries to resuscitate him. But it's no use and he's still unconscious by the time he's transported to the hospital in Laramie.

[04:49] Although the man's wallet and shoes are gone, doctors actually find his ID card from the University of Wyoming, which tells them that this young man's name is Matthew Shepard. [04:59] It's pretty obvious to the doctors that Matthew's injuries are way beyond what their little Laramie Hospital can handle. So that same night, he's moved to a trauma unit out of state in Fort Collins, Colorado. Law enforcement officers are as horrified as Matthew's doctors because what Matthew suffered goes way beyond the average beating. His skull is fractured in multiple places. His brainstem is severely damaged. [05:29] the same again. I mean, to be beaten that severely, police have to be thinking that. [05:34] this is a personal attack. Like, like, [05:36] It's not random, right? Right. I mean, that's exactly what they're thinking. And so right away, the Laramie police start really digging into Matthew Shepard to see who he was and to learn everything about him and understand who would have wanted to do something like this to him. [05:51] Now, they find out that he is an openly gay 21-year-old who is a freshman at the University of Wyoming. He grew up in Casper, but due to his dad's job in the oil industry, he spent time in places, I mean, as diverse as Switzerland and Saudi Arabia. I mean, he was kind of all over the place. And actually, at the time of all of this, Matthew's parents are still living in Saudi Arabia. And they, when they find out what happened to him, actually have to make the long trip back to the United States.

[06:21] named Tina has actually already called into the police and told them that she's worried about her friend because she hasn't been able to get in touch with him. You know, they're like asking her basic questions. They're, you know, taking this information over the phone. They want to know, you know, when did you see your friend last, stuff like that. And while Tina can't tell them anything about what her friend was doing before he went missing, she does tell the dispatcher a lot about him. This guy was young. He was sweet, maybe a little damaged, but a person with a bright future. And then she gives [06:51] her friend's name. [06:52] It's Matthew Shepard. A chill goes down the dispatcher's spine because in that moment, the dots start to connect. They realize that Tina doesn't know. Like she has no idea that her friend is sitting in the hospital and he's actually been found. [07:08] So once police make the connection, they contact Tina and start asking her some different questions like, did Matthew have any enemies? And was there anyone who'd want to hurt him? I mean, any lead that she could give them or point them in the right direction. [07:23] One of the things that she tells police really stands out and it's incredibly disturbing. She says this isn't the first time that Matthew's been attacked. And the previous attacks on him were all perpetrated for one very specific reason. Because he was gay. [07:40] Now, immediately, police start to wonder if this attack could also be related to that same reason. And what Tina doesn't know yet is that his most recent attackers are already on police's radar for an even more violent offense that happened that same night. What happened? So early that morning on October 7th, there was a street fight in downtown Laramie with these two pairs of guys, two sets of friends.

[08:10] trash to one another, only to have things turn like really ugly when the pair of white guys start tossing around these racial slurs at the other two who were Latino teenagers named Emiliano and Jeremy. And then the situation escalated when one of the white guys actually pulled out a gun and pistol whipped Emiliano. Now, Jeremy had this like big stick on him. I mean, that's just how like Emiliano describes it later to the Atlanta Constitution. So he hits [08:40] clubbed Emiliano, and fearing for their lives, they try and get away. Now, the white guys take off when the police show up, but they left behind their pickup truck. And when police searched the truck, they found a bloody .357 Magnum gun, a pair of shoes, and a credit card with a name that didn't mean anything back then, but now it's a name that Laramie law enforcement knows all too well. The name on that credit card was Matthew Shepard. [09:10] must be somehow connected to Matthew's case. Well, that's what it looks like. And not only are these two wanted for their connection to this street fight, they're now wanted for something way worse and possibly being connected to Matthew. Now, fortunately, this pickup truck connects police to its owner, a man named Bill McKinney, who says that his son Aaron had borrowed it that night. A quick search of police records for the name Aaron McKinney actually shows Aaron's already

[09:40] criminal conviction to his name. He's actually awaiting to be sentenced for a robbing like a KFC. And he's currently in the hospital in Laramie being treated for a head injury. When police go to talk to him that night, and mind you, this is only a couple of hours after the call came in about Matthew being found out in that fence. Aaron says that he was out with his buddy Russell Henderson that night, but that his truck was actually stolen. And he knows nothing about either the fight with Emiliano [10:10] about what happened to Matthew Shepard. [10:12] But the police aren't buying this. They have a ton of physical evidence from the truck, like the bloody gun. They have shoes. They have credit cards. And the story about a missing truck is just too convenient. I mean, after all, he never reported it stolen. And his injuries match exactly what Emiliano and Jeremy described. [10:33] So this investigation is moving fast. Within 48 hours, police interview both Aaron and Russell and their respective girlfriends, Kristen and Chassidy. [10:44] The two girls, who are like 18 and 20, come up with matching stories to tell police about watching movies together on the night that Matthew was murdered. But their story falls apart pretty fast. And eventually, they actually admit that they helped get rid of some evidence. And they finally tell police that they drove 50 miles to Cheyenne, Wyoming, to dump Aaron and Russell's bloody clothes. [11:09] Because of this confession, Russell is arrested on October 8th and charged with attempted first degree murder of Matthew Shepard. And he's charged with kidnapping and aggravated robbery, along with Kristen and Chasity, who are charged with being accessories after the fact. And a day later, on October 9th, Aaron is arrested, too.

[11:28] Now, even though this investigation is moving fast, people talk even faster. And police in Laramie have no idea that the saga is just beginning. [11:42] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. [12:02] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. Listen to the deck now. [12:09] wherever you get your podcasts. [12:13] The media gets a hold of Matthew's assault pretty quickly, and the story explodes all across the country within days. Word is already spreading that Matthew might have been attacked for being gay. And according to the Democrat and Chronicle, by October 9th, Laramie police are already looking at this as a possible hate crime. [12:31] Now, while all of this is going on, Matthew's parents are still making their way to his bedside in Colorado from Saudi Arabia. Now, they stop in Minneapolis to pick up Matthew's little brother, Logan, so that they can continue the trip as a family. But while they're traveling, Matthew's mom, Judy, actually sees a picture of Matthew with the news of his attack as front page headlines on the newsstands before she even gets to see her son in person.

[13:01] Like seeing a picture of your child. It has to be heartbreaking. Yeah. Happy and healthy. And knowing that when you finally go see them at their side, like they're going to be in so much pain. They might not even look like themselves anymore. I just I can't imagine what that would have been like for her. [13:16] So while the Shepherds are completing the most painful journey of their lives, the police are still interrogating Aaron and Russell. And it's Aaron who breaks first, telling officers the full story. He tells police that he and Russell met Matthew at this bar called the Fireside in Laramie. And apparently they had decided somehow, some way that they were going to rob him. As Aaron tells it, the two men pretended to be gay in order to win Matthew's confidence and make him feel more comfortable with them. [13:46] So at the end of the night, when Matthew was getting ready to leave, they said he had no problem accepting a ride and getting in Aaron's truck. Now, at some point during this ride, Aaron says that Matthew put his hand on Aaron's leg. So Aaron told him, as quoted in the BBC and numerous other sources, guess what? We're not gay and we're going to jack you up. Aaron says that's when they start to beat him. [14:16] expanse in the middle of nowhere with a fence. Aaron says Russell's the one who actually tied Matthew to the fence, but that he's the one who kept beating Matthew with the butt of his gun into unconsciousness and past the point of no return, all while mocking him about how Gay Awareness Week was just about to happen at the University of Wyoming.

[14:36] And he says the entire time that he's doing this, Russell is just laughing in the background, thinking that this was the funniest thing in the world. [14:45] Before they left, Aaron says that they actually took Matthew's shoes so that he wouldn't be able to walk back into town. And he said they continued to beat him specifically so that Matthew wouldn't even be able to like see out of his eyes well enough to pick out the license plate number as they drove away. [15:03] Now, it's at this point that they drive back into Laramie, and this is when they get into that encounter with Emiliano and Jeremy. So with a full confession, the attempted murder charges actually get upgraded to murder after Matthew dies from his injuries on October 12th, 1998, with his parents at his bedside. [15:24] He never emerged from his coma and the autopsy showed that he was struck at least 18 times with Aaron's gun, which led to multiple skull fractures and a severely damaged brainstem. [15:38] The already frenzied media reports every savage detail while police keep working the case. Even with the confessions and the suspects in custody, the motive is at the forefront of everyone's mind. Like, was this really a robbery gone wrong and literally as wrong as it could go? Or was this a targeted anti-gay hate crime? Erin's girlfriend Kristen sheds some light on it when she goes on 2020 and says, quote,

[16:08] a lesson not to come on to straight people and don't be aggressive about it anymore. [16:14] As the case progresses through the legal system, Aaron and Russell opt for different strategies. Instead of going to trial, Russell pleads guilty in April of 1999 to felony murder and kidnapping and gets handed two life sentences. Aaron decides to take his chances at trial and his defense team goes for a shocking tactic. They decide to use the gay panic defense. What is that? [16:44] a thing that stands on its own. The LGBT Bar Advocacy Group defines it as, quote, a legal strategy that asks a jury to find that a victim's sexual orientation or gender identity expression is to blame for a defendant's violent reaction, including murder. [17:04] End quote. So blaming the victim. Yeah. So basically what this is saying is that the perpetrator's mental capacity was temporarily diminished and that they couldn't make clear, rational or right decisions because they were just so incensed or appalled or surprised or whatever that their victim was an LGBTQ person. And so they say that they shouldn't be held to the normal standard of the law because really it's the victim's fault for who they were. [17:34] Everything that guy just says bullshit. I'm sorry. What? Like, there's no way that's legal. Like, can it even be used in court? Oh, absolutely. It can be used according to the law. I mean, basically, it comes down to just what it sounds like. Violently freaking out because someone isn't a heterosexual cisgender person can be excused.

[18:04] all together in some cases. [18:06] Now, at the time of Aaron's trial, this is back in October of 99, his team knows that the gay panic defense is a strategy that is totally legal in all 50 states at the time. So Tom Kenworthy reported in The Washington Post that Aaron's lawyers kind of hone in on the fact that Matthew allegedly made a pass at Aaron when he put his hand on Aaron's leg, which they argue that it like sheds some light on Aaron's state of mind. [18:36] and that he was just so triggered and humiliated by Matthew's advances that he temporarily went crazy and beat him to death. And therefore, they said that he should be convicted of manslaughter, not murder. Now, fortunately, Judge Barton Boyd is instantly like, no. He cites Wyoming law banning temporary insanity and diminished capacity defenses, and he tells Aaron's team to come up with something else. [19:06] murder, kidnapping and aggravated robbery. According to CNN, his lawyers work out a deal with the prosecutors to drop the felony murder conviction, which could have earned him the death penalty if Aaron agreed not to appeal his two consecutive life sentences and he takes the deal. [19:22] But Matthew's murder starts a systemic shift in how LGBTQ rights and legal protections are talked about in the United States. I mean, we've seen this case held up and pointed to so many times that it's really a part of the American legal landscape, you know. And in the nearly 22 years since Matthew's death, there have been some new theories and like controversies about whether or not this murder really was a hate crime.

[19:52] a combination of factors. But regardless of what motivated the actions on that terrible night, a human still suffered a brutal fate. As of 2020, Matthew Shepard rests in the Washington National Cathedral. Aaron McKinney and Russell Henderson remain in prison where they'll probably stay for the rest of their lives. But. [20:13] But while justice was done for Matthew and the gay panic defense didn't work, let me tell you about a case where it did work. [20:24] . [20:26] Cape Fear is a new series now streaming on Apple TV. This 10-episode psychological thriller is executive produced by Martin Scorsese and stars Academy Award winner Javier Bardem, Academy Award nominee Amy Adams, and Emmy nominee Patrick Wilson. When convicted murderer Max Cady is released from prison, he begins infiltrating the family of the married attorneys who helped put him behind bars. Watch Cape Fear streaming now on Apple TV. [20:54] So early in the morning on September 21st, 2015 now, a man walks into the Austin Fleet Service Center in East Austin, which is a part of the city's downtown. So early in the morning on September 21st, this is 2015 now, a man walks into the Austin Fleet Service Center in East Austin, which is a part of the city's downtown.

[21:24] to get repaired. So a civilian coming in at around like 3 a.m. in the morning, which is what's going on here, is super unusual. [21:32] But the circumstances get even stranger because according to a report from KVUE News, this man says that he needs to speak to a police officer right away. The person on duty calls the Austin police at 345 in the morning and they send an officer right out to talk to this man. And, you know, they're like, hey, what's going on? Why do you need to talk to us? Why'd you come here? To which the man replies two things. He says, [21:59] "I think I killed someone." [22:01] And he says, I stabbed him. [22:03] The man gives his name as James Robert Miller. He says he's 67 years old. He takes police to an apartment building nearby. And before they even go inside, officers can see something terribly wrong through the window. Just inside, near the front door, they can see a man lying on the floor, not moving. [22:25] The doors unlocked and police hurry inside. Right away, they can see that this is a very bloody crime scene. A gruesome trail leads from the kitchen to the hallway up to the front door near where the man's body is. [22:39] A single touch of him shows that he's already gone, cold to the touched, and he's declared dead at 4.38 in the morning. And James is immediately put under arrest and taken into custody. [22:51] Now, even though James said the victim's name was David, police actually identify him as Daniel Spencer. Daniel Spencer.

[22:58] According to the Austin PD's arrest affidavit, as quoted in KXAN News, when police asked James what happened here, James tells them he and Daniel were just hanging out, having some drinks, playing some guitar together, basically having like a jam session before things just went wrong, he says. [23:28] So this is what it says. [23:29] We were playing. We were doing the good music. We were playing back and forth and everything. And I just let him know, hey, I'm not gay. We've been playing. We're musicians and all that kind of stuff. But I'm not a gay guy. Then it seemed like everything was all right and everything was fine. When I got ready to go, it seemed like expletive just started happening. End quote. [23:51] Okay, but what started happening is... [23:55] James saying that Daniel hit on him or something? Otherwise, I mean... [24:00] We're straight, but we don't go around like making sure everyone we meet knows that. Like we're doing a podcast and it's like, by the way, Brett. [24:07] I'm not gay. Right. Like, why would he even feel the need to tell the police that he isn't gay? Right. And so that's exactly what the police want to know. Like, he's throwing out this stuff without, like, kind of. [24:16] Any context, like there's a heavy insinuation there, right? So that whole statement is totally loaded. And it brings up a bunch of questions for law enforcement about how on earth James went from playing music with Daniel to stabbing him.

[24:32] But according to that same affidavit that I just read from, James won't say anything else until he gets a lawyer. So he's put under arrest and charged with first degree murder. [24:42] Now, there's really not a lot out there about how exactly this investigation goes down and in what order things happen. But what we do know is that the police at the scene look at James and look at all the blood and they instantly want to know why James himself isn't all dead. [24:59] bloody. And where's the murder weapon? That too. So police are like side-eyeing that hard. And they're like, OK, if you did this and you're saying you did it, like, why don't you have any blood on you? And at which point, James admits that he went home and changed his clothes before calling law enforcement. [25:19] According to Katie Urbazewski's report in the Austin American Statesman, James lives like just around the corner from Daniel. And they're actually neighbors. So it's easy for police to get into James's place right away to search and see if there's anything there. Again, bloody clothes, murder weapon. That's what they're looking for. And sure enough, there's a set of clothes that look like they've just been bleached. And right there in the pants pocket is a bloody folding knife. [25:49] for DNA testing, Daniel's body is sent for an autopsy, and within two days of his death, Austin police rule Daniel's death a homicide. And the blood on James's clothes is a match for Daniel. Now, just like we talked about with Matthew Shepard, James's attorney goes for the gay panic defense when trial starts in April of 2018. And at the time of James's trial,

[26:19] strategy because according to statistics tracked by criminal justice experts, this strategy works one third of the time getting a charge reduced in even super violent homicides. [26:34] So with odds like that, James's lawyer decides to go for this tactic in court. Now, unlike Aaron McKinney's lawyers who went for the temporary, like incapacitated angle, James's team claims that James stabbed Daniel in self-defense. And in this case, the judge allows the strategy to be used. [26:56] But get this. So James himself actually takes the stand to testify. And as London Gibson reported in the Austin American Statesman, when he's asked if he and Daniel got into a fight, they're not. [27:09] He says, no. Wait, I'm confused. If there wasn't a fight, how can he say it was self-defense? [27:15] According to his testimony, James says that Daniel tried to kiss him. And when James said no, he got mad and moved forward with a glass in his hand. Now, James says that he was super afraid because Daniel was almost a foot taller than him. He was like 30 years younger than him. And so, [27:36] This is the point where he stabs him in order to protect himself. Now, the prosecution doesn't buy this at all. Daniel's family and friends testify that he actually didn't even identify as gay, which this kind of tangles the facts even more because Daniel's not here to clarify how he identifies, you know, like maybe he was straight. Maybe he was LGBTQ and not out yet. I mean, we just don't know. It's none of our business to speculate.

[28:06] himself, the prosecutor pokes holes in James's story, pointing out the autopsy report, which says Daniel was stabbed in the back, not in the front like he would have been if he was advancing on him like James says. And they show the court pictures of James's hands from the day of the [28:26] any defensive wounds or anything to indicate a struggle. [28:31] Despite James going on about not being gay when he was arrested, this is the first time in almost three years that he's ever made any reference to a specific unwanted sexual advance. So if he's telling the truth about it... [28:45] Why didn't he say anything before? [28:47] So like I said before, the prosecution thinks this defense is total BS. But as we know, in the end, a trial's outcome isn't up to the prosecution. It's up to the jury. After 10 hours of deliberation, they come back with a shocking verdict. Right. [29:08] Thank you. [29:08] Cape Fear is a new series now streaming on Apple TV. This 10-episode psychological thriller is executive produced by Martin Scorsese and stars Academy Award winner Javier Bardem, Academy Award nominee Amy Adams, and Emmy nominee Patrick Wilson. When convicted murderer Max Cady is released from prison, he begins infiltrating the family of the married attorneys who helped put him behind bars. Watch Cape Fear streaming now on Apple TV. [29:36] On April 24th, 2018, James Robert Miller is found innocent of both murder and manslaughter in the death of Daniel Spencer. Instead, he's convicted of criminally negligent homicide, which is a less serious charge.

[29:55] Britt, do you want to guess what his sentence was? Ugh, I hate it when you make me do this. I already know it's way lower than I want it to be. I guess maybe like 10 years in jail? Try six months in county jail and 10 years probation. What? My mind is crazy. [30:13] totally blown that James basically gets a couple of slaps on the wrist for stabbing Daniel to death in the back. But this is why this panic defense is so dangerous and needs to be banned nationwide. When it works, killers can walk away with practically zero consequences for their actions. [30:39] Now, [30:39] This defense isn't limited necessarily to just gay people or even to just sexuality alone. Transgender and gender nonconforming people, particularly those who are people of color, face alarming rates of hatred and violence simply for daring to exist as their authentic selves. And far too often, that same defense tactic punishes the victim and shields their assailants from the full reach of justice. [31:09] story of Islan Nettles, who was murdered in Harlem back in 2013. And do you want to know what she was doing when she gets killed? [31:19] Nothing? Yeah. Islam was just walking home with one of her friends. That's it. Just living her life, going about her day. And according to Vice News, on August 17th, she and her friend run into a group of guys near West 148th Street on their way. And one of them, this guy named James Dixon, starts flirting with Islam. And for a little while, everything's innocent until James's friend tells him that she's transgender. And James gets mad.

[31:49] spewing homophobic, transphobic slurs like left and right. He feels humiliated in front of his buddies. So he pushes her. And when she pushes back, James flips out and punches her so hard that she falls and hits her head on the ground. And the next punch he gives to her puts her in a coma. [32:09] Now, Islam's family and friends were totally devastated. I mean, here is this vibrant and outgoing woman, only 21 years old, just starting her career in fashion with a job at this local designer in Harlem. And she's got her own clothing line in progress. And here she is, gone from being full of life to being literally on life support. [32:32] She never regained consciousness and she died on August 22nd, 2013. Police treat her murder as a possible hate crime, but [32:42] Here's the thing. They're kind of like meh about it, which is all too common when victims are trans women of color. [32:49] Like literally detectives don't even go to the Harlem Hospital where she's being treated. And Jamila King reported on Mick.com that James actually goes to police within a couple of days after the assault to confess. [33:03] But they don't even believe him. Instead, another suspect, this guy named Paris, who was also there that night, is arrested and charged, again, not with murder, but with a misdemeanor assault and harassment. Like a woman is beaten to death and a suspect is charged immediately.

[33:22] with a misdemeanor. My blood is boiling. My blood is boiling. Now, once James is finally arrested and indicted, I mean, this is 2015 now, two years after her death, he's charged with first and second degree manslaughter and first degree assault. He pleads not guilty and his team opts for just what we've been talking about all episode, the panic defense. And again, the judge allows it. [33:49] But that's not all the judge allows. He also rules that the videotapes of James's confession are admissible in court. And there on tape is all the proof of James's transphobia, where he refers to her in super derogatory language that I'm not going to repeat. And he says he went into a rage when he found out that Islam was trans. And he said that his masculinity felt threatened. Like, no. [34:14] This isn't panic. This is hatred. Pure, vile hatred. Yeah. [34:20] According to the advocate, James takes a plea deal after the tapes are ruled admissible and changes his plea to guilty of first degree manslaughter. Which is a good thing, right? [34:31] I mean, it's better than him walking free, but the panic defense still did its job because while the DA recommends that Jane gets 17 years in jail for killing Islam, he is sentenced to only 12 years. That's almost a third less time than he should have gotten. [34:48] I mean, and when you ask, like, is that justice for Islam? No. Like once his time is served, James will have some hope of getting his life back, whereas Islam Nettles will never have that chance again. Currently, in 2020, the LGBTQ panic defense is legal still in 40 states. Now, there is some legislation to get rid of it in a couple of states as well as Washington, D.C.

[35:18] scholar, and he's been putting together a database of how often this type of defense is used in the U.S. and which states it's been used in. According to his research, it's been used 104 times between 1970 and January of 2020. But since state and federal governments don't actually track this type of defense in any of their stats, I mean, honestly, that's actually probably a lower number than the [35:48] unacceptable. We are all the same. [35:51] We all deserve the same basic rights as humans. We want to do everything we can, not just to get the word out about these important issues, but to actually help make a difference. We are going to be making a donation to the LGBT Bar, which is a group actively leading the effort to ban the LGBTQ panic defense nationwide. And if you want to make a contribution as well, you can do so while also getting some Crime Junkie swag. [36:21] We have a very special pride-inspired store that is going to be open from June 1st to June 13th. And a portion of the proceeds from every single item are going to be donated to the LGBT Bar. You can find the store by going to CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. Or if you'd like to make a donation to them directly or learn more about the ongoing efforts to ban the LGBTQ panic defense in all 50 states, you can go directly to their website, LGBTBar.org.

[36:51] Thank you. [36:52] If you want to see any pictures from this story or our source material, you can find all of the information along with links to the LGBT bar and our store on our website, CrimeJunkiePodcast.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast. [37:22] episode. [37:46] you [37:48] *music* [37:50] *music* [37:53] Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production [37:56] So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? [38:01] Okay, crime junkies. You know I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that? [38:19] It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now and I've been listening for years.

[38:23] I think you'll love it too. [38:25] Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.