MURDERED: Oklahoma Girl Scouts

[00:00] Hi, crime junkies. It's Britt, and I have big news. One of my favorite seasonal shows, CounterClock, is back with a brand new season, and it is wild. Host Delia D'Ambra is digging into the 2008 Lane Bryant murders. I mean, this isn't just a recap. It is a reinvestigation. She's talking to law enforcement, people from the community, even sources who have never spoken publicly until now. And you know I love a show that asks all the questions. Listen to CounterClock Season 8 now wherever you get your podcasts. [00:30] Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And I am going to warn you all up front, today's podcast is going to be a little rough. Anytime we talk about crimes against children, it is especially hard. And this case is one of those that will just tear your heart into pieces. So brace yourself because today we are talking about the Oklahoma Girl Scout murders. [01:00] Thank you. [01:27] Back in 1977, there was a thriving 400-acre camp called Camp Scott in Mays County, Oklahoma, smack dab in the middle of the U.S. This camp is one that young girls flock to from all over the state. And when I say young, I'm talking like 8, 9, 10, 11-year-old girls. Little babies. Yeah, some of them going away from home for the first time ever.

[01:57] campers would get dropped off at the Camp Scott headquarters, and then they would get bused out to the campsite where they could spend time in their cabins or tents, depending on what you want to call them, and in the mess halls, playing outdoors, just like young kids should. But as they drove the bus down these long, desolate roads, seeing sign after sign of what was to come, I don't think any camper or any counselor could have prepared themselves for what would happen in the next 24 [02:27] site, the campers would get split up into cabins, usually four girls to each. At this specific site, which is called Kiowa, where this story is centered, there were eight cabins. Cabin one was for the counselors and cabins two through eight were for the campers. That's why if you have done any research on this case online, you'll often see it say that the girls of our story were in cabin eight. Some say they were in cabin seven. So technically they were in cabin eight, but only... [02:54] Two through eight were for the campers, so sometimes people say it was seven. Now, I have a map of this, Britt, that I can share with you, and we're also posted on the website, so you can kind of get an idea of where these cabins were. Okay, so this is just kind of the arrangement of this, I'm sure, clearing of land where everything is, right? Right. So you'll notice that the... [03:17] tent seven or tent eight, however you want to call it, is actually the furthest from the counselor's tent. And [03:23] It's actually one of the only ones that's completely out of the line of sight. I was just about to say that.

[03:31] big building between the two of them. Yeah, there's this kitchen storage shower area that kind of blocks it off. So this is the one that is the most desolate. And they actually look kind of close together on this like hand drawn map. But people who have gone out to the campsite later, even one of the parents who went out later said that they're not going to be a big one. [03:50] Tent 8 felt so desolate that even they as an adult wouldn't have wanted to stay in it. So in cabin 8, this cabin furthest from all of the other campers, were these three young girls. Michelle, who was 9, Denise, who was 10, and Lori, who was only 8 at the time, but whose 9th birthday was less than a week away. Now, I need to give you a little background on the girls in cabin 8 because I think it's knowing how some of them ended up at camp [04:20] I'm going to be a little bit more. [04:49] You are so tough. Oh, my God. You still are. Yeah, like... [04:52] Put me on an airplane, parents. I'll see you later. I'll send you a letter. Well, we've said it before. You also wanted to solve murders by that time. Like you were like a hard and seasoned detective. Like you were. I thought I was fully capable. Yeah. So she was the youngest camper, but I don't think she felt like the youngest. She wanted to do what all of the other girls were doing. She wanted adventures. And that's why before that summer, she had begged her mom to let her go to a sleepaway camp. She just.

[05:20] begged and begged and her mom was really reluctant at first. I mean, at first, like she's eight years old. Like again, I thought I was old at eight, but I look at eight year olds now and I just want to grab them in my arms and keep them safe forever because they're little babies. Yeah, definitely. Like I will never have kids because I'm going to be such a smother mother. But Lori's mom was starting to give in and Lori had two camps that she wanted to go to that summer, either Girl Scout camp at Camp Scott or at the [05:47] Or there was this camp put on by the Y. And Lori had no preference. Lori's mom says she doesn't know why she did. And she will regret it every day for the rest of her life. But it was her decision, not Lori's, that ended up... [06:02] sending her to the Scott camp that summer. Now, when we talk about one of the other girls, Denise, Denise's mother had an even more heart-wrenching experience with sending her daughter off to camp that June. You see, Denise was a mama's girl. She would get really homesick. Like, she didn't even really like doing sleepovers at her friends' houses because every night she wanted to be at home. She'd be one of those girls who would go and then call her mom at 9 o'clock at night to come pick her up so she could be in her own bed.

[06:32] 1977 when Denise came to her and said, mom, I really want to go to a sleepover camp this summer. All my friends are going. I'm going to be the only one who isn't. I really, really, really, really want to. And her mom, like any mother, is like, girl, we have been down this road. You're going to call me to come pick you up. [06:48] And she's like, no, mom, no, I swear, I really want this. And they go back and forth all spring into the summer until her mom finally gives in and says, okay, I guess she really wants this. Maybe she's growing up a little bit. And Denise is all about going until the day before camp when she really starts to worry. And she totally backs out, just like her mom suspected she would. And she starts to beg her mom, please let me stay home. Please, I don't want to go. I'm scared. I'm not going to know anybody. I don't want to sleep by myself. [07:18] But her mom's kind of fed up with the back and forth and she's listening like, "You [07:21] begged to go. I'm putting my foot down. You are going to go to this camp. And even all the way up to the point where she's getting dropped off, Denise is saying, please, please let me stay home. Oh my God. And her mom says, listen, I will make you a deal. We are all the way here. I paid for you to go. [07:39] spend one night [07:41] If after one night you want me to come pick you up, [07:44] I will. [07:45] Oh my God. So Denise got out of the car, took the bus to the campsite, and she spent her first and last night at camp because that was the night that she and her two bunkmates were murdered. [07:58] And here is something that the parents didn't know at the time, something that I think might have changed all of their minds about letting their young, vulnerable daughters go off to camp. Two months before all the girls arrived there, there was this training session held at Camp Scott.

[08:14] The training session came to an abrupt halt when one of the counselor's tents was ransacked. And there was this very chilling handwritten note that was found in an empty box of donuts. And it said, quote, we are on a mission to kill three girls in tent one. [08:33] it went on to say other things, but there was this hand-drawn picture of a stick man hanging from a tree by its neck. And he, [08:41] the note was kind of poo-pooed, like dismissed. And I think they dismissed it because along with this message that we're going to kill three girls in tent one, there was also some talk about like Martians or aliens. So they just thought this was a crazy person. [08:54] I mean... [08:55] Even if it is just some random crazy person rambling, [09:00] As a parent, I would still want to know that [09:03] that happened and there were precautions taken. We're sending our kids here. That's kind of a big deal. Oh, I totally agree to know, even if this was a crazy guy, I don't love the fact that a crazy guy can just break in and ransack your tent. And there's like no cameras. And no one cares. Yeah. No security, like nothing. And again, these are babies. These aren't even like teenage girls who like stand a fighting chance if this guy was being serious. And it's kind of, you know, when you look back and think about it, [09:30] The note said we're on a mission to kill three girls in tent one. They don't work at the camp. So tent eight could have easily been mistaken for tent one. Definitely. And I think this was like a very ominous message. Now, like I said, this camp is in the middle of nowhere. No cameras, no kind of surveillance. So the only way we have any idea about what happened the night of the murders is by piecing small bits of information together.

[10:00] cabin eight. Another young girl named Angela was placed in there after finding out that there was no room in the tent with the troop that she actually came with. There's an interesting quote from her from an article I read that said, quote, I stayed there with the three girls. I talked with them one-on-one and even put my stuff in their tent. We sat around the campfire talking and getting to know one another, end quote. But just as she was making these new friends, the camp counselors ended up coming back and they said, oh, hey, you know, we actually have room for you now. [10:30] going to go back with the girls in your troop. So this girl, Angela, actually ended up leaving Lori, Denise, and Michelle, and she went back and she says all the time, like, I can't figure out why I was the one that was spared. So [10:44] They all got settled in. And one of the girls even, she said, needed to go to the latrine. And so she says... [10:51] Quote, [10:52] We all got up to go together. You know how these girls play jokes on one another. We were all on our way to the latrine, and on our way down there, we noticed three flashlights that had come toward us. So we all screamed. The flashlights disappeared. So they ran back into their tent and kind of got settled in again, but I think this is like the first sign that we're seeing that somebody is out in the woods with a flashlight kind of watching this area. Now, at this point, the weather took a turn for the worst, [11:22] stay in and they all actually go back and write letters home to their parents. And this is when we know for sure that the three girls wrote their letters and they ended up finding these three letters later that they wrote to their parents that were just heartbreaking. And even worse, in Denise's letter, she's telling her mom, listen, I was right. I don't want to be here. Please come pick me up. I can't stay for two weeks. Now, what happened after those girls wrote those letters can only be left up to your worst imaginations. What we do know is

[11:51] is that one of the counselors said she saw a dim light in the woods out by the tree line surrounding the camp. And I don't know if this is like the same area where those little girls had saw flashlights or if those flashlights are totally unrelated. [12:07] The counselor said no one should have been there. So she actually got her flashlight and pointed it out to the trees. And as soon as she did that, the dim light turned off. And so she turned off her light and kind of waited. And after she waited a while, that dim light kind of came back on and moved northwest toward Kiowa, where we know the girls are. Now, later that same night, [12:32] A counselor in Kiowa wakes up to a loud noise. It's like this horrible grunting noise. And grunting isn't even like the right word because she said it was almost otherworldly. It didn't sound human, but it didn't sound like any animal she'd ever heard either. It sounded like something in pain, just like low and guttural. And she woke up the other counselor in her tent and she's like, do you hear that? And the other girl was just way too out of it, too tired to care. [13:02] and she went out to investigate. She steps out of her tent, turns on her flashlight, and the sound just stops. [13:11] Nothing but crickets and the night air. So she does a slow walk around the tents, but everything is quiet. [13:18] Nothing seemed out of place, and so she went back to bed.

[13:22] The same night, a few tents away, the girls in tent 6 said they saw somebody with a flashlight approach their tent but never enter. At the time, they thought maybe it was a counselor, but as we will learn later, no counselors ever went up to their tent. That light left their tent and slowly moved to tent 8. [13:43] That next morning, our counselor, the one who had been up late the night before, was an early riser. And so she wanted to hit the showers before all of the campers woke up. It's already hot and humid as she grabs her towel and her shower bag and leaves the tent. Now she heads up the road when something catches her attention just out of the corner of her eye. It's a sleeping bag. And the first thought she has is, oh, the buses must have brought more stuff that maybe didn't make it up the night before. [14:13] to leave it. So she starts to walk over to the bag [14:17] and she realizes it's not luggage. The sleeping bag is full, and inside is a very small, [14:25] dead young girl. And immediately she runs to notify the camp owners. A small crowd of staff and counselors begins to draw around the area when it dawns on everyone [14:37] There are two other girls missing from the cabin. Several yards away, they find two more sleeping bags, both holding two more small bodies. The first responders on the scene said the bags were so small and the girls were curled up, so tight, it was hard to believe there could even be a body inside. More agencies flocked in, including the Highway Patrol and the State Bureau, and the three girls were all pronounced dead at the scene.

[15:06] As the crime scene was processed, a picture of the night before became more clear in investigators' minds. Someone had entered into the back of the tent and struck the children. Michelle and Lori were killed inside the tent while Denise was dragged or carried through the dark woods and then killed. Tape and rope had been used to bind her hands behind her back and some of them had a sewn gag that was used on them. [15:34] After they were killed, their killer moved their bodies about 100 yards away from the tent. And they did this, we know, sometime between 11 p.m. and 6 a.m. And we know that because their sleeping bags were actually dry, which means they had to have been placed there after 11 when the rain had stopped, but before they were found early the next morning. We also know that Denise was the last to die. When the girls were found, both Michelle and Lori were already cold, [16:04] and rigor mortis had started to set in, whereas Denise was actually still warm. [16:09] Oh my God. After they were moved, their killer returned to the tent and attempted to wipe up the tent floor with mattress covers and towels, anything he could find to try and wipe up the blood. And those items were then stuffed into the sleeping bags with the girls and carried to the location where they were found. All three girls showed signs of being sexually assaulted. There were actually swabs taken from Denise and Michelle that had semen.

[16:39] officer said that when he saw her body he felt like it was clear she had been assaulted in some way because her underwear was pulled very far to the side in a way he said that she would have never worn it. [16:51] All of the girls showed signs of mutilation, brutal beatings, strangulation, all by a monster who appeared in the middle of the night. [17:02] While the investigators worked at the camp, employees worked hard to move the children. That young girl who was originally supposed to be in 10-8 that night said, quote, They told us something was wrong with the camp water and we were going back early. We were pretty bummed, end quote. So these young girls had no idea that something bad had happened. They're all just kind of getting rushed out of the camp. And I don't think anyone told a lot of them for a long time. [17:32] counselors even to this day suffer like very traumatic PTSD. [17:37] All of the girls were bused back to the headquarters in Tulsa, where each child was escorted off the bus one by one when their names were called. Angela said, the little girl who was supposed to be in 10-8, that she actually dropped something. So when her name was called a couple of times, it took her a couple of minutes before she got off the bus. And when she finally walked off of the bus... [17:59] after what I imagine seemed like an eternity to her parents, like calling their name, calling their name. Because the parents know something bad has happened. Angela sees her mom and her mom is on her knees just weeping. And again, she still had no idea what was going on, but you can see that the parents had all seen the news, but they were given very little information. So the parents all just came and waited anxiously, hoping that their child would be one of the children that walk off the bus.

[18:29] learned about the murders actually from the television so when they got a call from the camp that same day they knew that a tragedy was waiting for them laurie and denise's parents also received phone calls but none of the parents were the camp's first call the first people that were contacted according to the families was actually the camp's lawyers and the camp's insurance agencies which is [18:53] kind of disgusting. [18:55] Even when the parents are called, they're only told that there had been a quote accident. And it isn't until much later that they find out the gruesome truth about what happened to their daughters. Yeah. [19:08] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. [19:27] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. [19:33] Listen to the deck now. [19:35] wherever you get your podcasts. [19:38] There was a story Denise's mom told that is kind of haunting. You know how sometimes children are just more in tune to things that we can't see or feel anymore as adults? Oh, it's so creepy. Yeah, so she feels that Denise's younger sister, Kathy, had some kind of like childhood intuition about what was to come later.

[19:59] without even really understanding what it was she was feeling. So Kathy's only five, and apparently the day she dropped Denise off at camp, Kathy starts asking her mom out of nowhere. This has never happened before. She wants to know what happens when people die. [20:15] and and [20:16] Denise's mom doesn't know where this is coming from. And she's like, well, you know, people die, and then more people are born. And so the world just keeps kind of going on. And Kathy says, well... [20:28] What if everybody dies? [20:31] And she's like... [20:32] Well, everyone won't die at once. Again, like some people die, the world goes on, more babies are born – [20:38] And... [20:39] Kathy says something to the effect of like, tomorrow everybody's gonna die. [20:44] And her mom thinks this is crazy. This is just like creepy kid talk. Right. And the next day, they were all dead. [20:51] Now, back at the coroner's office, the investigator said there was so much excessive force used on these young girls. And he said it was especially striking seeing Lori. He said he'll never forget opening her tiny bag and seeing her in there. Because even though she was strangled and they were hit, her face had not been damaged. And he said it just looked like she was asleep. And at any second, she was going to wake up. [21:21] these little girls. He said he hoped and prayed each and every time that just one of these girls hadn't been sexually assaulted. But as we already know, they find out that likely all three of them were. Now,

[21:34] Investigators have this crime scene. They have the autopsies, but they actually had very little to go on. And the little that they did have was kind of confusing. Found at the scene were nylon rope, duct tape, a red flashlight, and a crowbar, all next to where the bodies were found. The other thing noticed by officers is that Tent 8 was not the only tent our perpetrator went into that night. There were a number of other tents that were missing eyeglasses. [22:04] those eyeglasses, it's not like they were stolen. They would be found in all of these different places around the campsite. [22:10] That... [22:11] seems so... [22:13] bizarre, like almost mischievous. Why would you take these items and distribute them other places other than just to [22:22] play a joke on somebody? Yeah, you know, there was a documentary on this that I watched that said the perpetrator was looking for a prescription that fit their eyes. [22:31] that's kind of the theory that they went off in this documentary but I don't think that makes any sense at all. Like why would you come to a crime scene not being able to see and then go around looking for glasses? Like that is not [22:43] make any sense to me. Well, and you're going, you're going there knowing that there's children, like they're children's glasses. So they're small. They might not fit even if they are your prescription. And some of these are from counselors though. Like, so they're, they're all women's glasses. I mean, even if they're adults, again, like I don't know why you would go in blind, hoping somebody has a prescription that kind of matches you. I think more likely, like you said, it's either like very mischievous or it's like some kind of weird fetish. Yeah, I guess I could

[23:13] the counselor's glasses. [23:16] Maybe they were just hoping that without their glasses, they couldn't see the bodies. That's true, too. So that is a great point. Like, what if they were just moving all of the glasses so that way, if a counselor woke up. [23:28] It bought them more time. Exactly. That's actually a really good point. Well, it didn't take long before some of the evidence started getting linked back to people in the area. So if you remember that nylon rope that was found by the girls, well, it turns out that it came from a nearby farmhouse. But this farmer insists that he had actually been robbed and multiple things from his farm had been stolen. And he ends up passing a lie detector test. [23:58] newspapers, [24:00] totally like outed him as the murderer just for taking a lie detector test. They ran a front page story that said lie detector given in Girl Scout slang. And on the other page, it continued with his picture. And the word above his picture was slayer. So he received so many harassing phone calls that he either like mentally or physically broke because he had to be hospitalized. And it turns out he actually passed that lie detector. And police ended up ruling him out as a suspect. [24:30] stuff had been stolen off of his property and the stuff that was stolen is what was used in the homicides. [24:36] Oh my gosh. I mean, you say the media was back then. The media is still kind of like that. Yeah, it's amazing. A lot of people try to be like the first on the story or have the most exclusive information. So fact checking has kind of gone to the wayside.

[24:50] As the days go by and police got overwhelmed, [24:53] Further and further from an arrest, they were desperate and willing to try anything. And like it starts with like the most innocent thing being bringing in these like magical tracker dogs whose owner guaranteed they could close the case within 48 hours. And listen. Magical? I believe in magical puppets, but. [25:11] I was going to say, those are real, right? Yeah, obviously. I also saw some stuff about them experimenting with Native American rituals to help guide them. And this is kind of where the Native American culture starts to peek out in this story. Because it plays a heavy part later when in a command staff meeting, the police mentioned that a Cherokee man named Gene Hart had escaped from prison back in 73. [25:41] at large in the area. So, I mean, this is, this camp is like in the heart of Native American land. And a lot of stuff in this case revolves around... [25:51] Native American culture and race. And so this man, Gene Hart, that they had mentioned, he had actually been a local football hero. [26:00] in the area until 1966, when he kidnapped two pregnant women [26:07] forced them into his car, tied them with nylon rope and duct tape, and sexually assaulted them. And I'm not sure if it was just the fact that he was a violent criminal who had been loose in the area, and the fact that he was raised just about a mile from the campsite, or if it was because one strange detail that they thought that this might be their guy.

[26:30] One of the women that he had attacked said that while he was raping her, Jean had made these incoherent sounds. And this woman tried to draw comparisons or give some kind of frame of reference for these noises. But every time she tried, she was just speechless because it was like nothing she had ever heard before. And so I, like police at the time, have to wonder, [27:00] Camp Scott was awoken by the night of the murders. Another interesting thing about this attack, one of the victims said that Jean actually took her glasses and was like trying them on. That actually makes a lot of sense with the glasses though. Right. So... [27:16] These are the things that are making them look at him. And when he was done attacking these women... [27:23] What he did is he placed a rag in their mouth and then wrapped their entire face, eyes, nose, and mouth with duct tape, totally taping them up so that they couldn't breathe and left them in the middle of the woods, like covered in brush and leaves. And somehow this woman says she still doesn't know to this day. She said it was like a miracle. She got the tape off of her face to breathe. And that's the only thing that saved her. And so she ended up testifying. [27:53] against him and he ended up going to prison but he ended up escaping years later now the command staff meeting is where they first brought up gene hart as a suspect but it wasn't long after this that a cave overlooking camp scott was discovered and it appeared like someone had been living in it

[28:14] They found plastic material. They found women's underwear, a pair of women's glasses, newspaper, and a crumpled picture of a woman. All of this would turn out to be very significant. Now, remember that flashlight at the original crime scene? Yeah. Well, there was this piece of newspaper crumpled inside of it to hold the battery in place. The same edition of that newspaper was found inside of the cave. [28:44] a pair that was missing from one of the women at camp. Just like the glasses. Those glasses were also taken from the campsite. So it turns out of all of the pairs that the killer like took and moved or tried on or whatever he was doing with them, he did end up taking one pair. I guess I'm [29:04] having trouble connecting the dots. All this connects to the campsite, but [29:08] How does it connect to Jean? So, so far, all of this stuff doesn't link to Jean. This stuff links to the campsite, like you said. Police say proving whoever was living in that cave had to have been the one who killed the girls. And they say they can prove Jean was the one living there because of that crumpled picture of a woman that they found. They actually place a national ad in all of the newspapers across the country looking for this woman. They think somehow she's the link. [29:38] They can find out maybe how this person had it. So they end up finding out that this person

[29:45] picture had been taken by a local wedding photographer and the wedding photographer got help from a man in prison to develop them and the man in prison's name was Gene Hart. Now at this point there is a national manhunt for Gene and when they end up capturing him in like a true creeper fashion he's wearing women's glasses. A clear visual to the arresting officers that [30:15] Now, the first officer who interviewed him said that when he looked him dead in the eyes, he just said, you did it, didn't you? [30:23] And Jean's only reply [30:25] was you will never pin it on me. [30:29] For decades, some cold cases have been reduced to files in a cabinet, but not anymore. I'm Ashley Flowers, and me and my team on the deck have been traveling across the country to report on these forgotten cases. And in some instances, it's resulted in these cases being solved after decades. [30:48] Join me every Wednesday as we revive these stories one card at a time. [30:53] Listen to the deck now. [30:55] wherever you get your podcasts. [30:58] And Britt, you know, when Gene looks at the officer and he says, you're never going to pin it on me. Of course, the officer takes this as an admission of guilt and saying, OK, this is a challenge him versus me. But do you know what that statement kind of reminds me of? What's that? We did an episode on the murder of Angela Savage and her fiance kind of had a similar statement. Investigators brought him in and said, you know, we suspect you of killing your fiance. And he said, well, you're going to have to do your job and prove it.

[31:28] 20 years later that he actually didn't kill her. Like DNA proved it, but he, [31:33] It's amazing how... [31:35] Because as we go on with the story, there's a big group of people who think Gene is innocent. And I just never know how to take their comments. So in addition to the stuff they found in the cave, when investigators found Gene, he was arrested in a cabin. And in this cabin, there was a corncob pipe and a mirror found with him that was also linked to the campsite. So investigators felt like this was a done deal. He is our guy. [32:05] And the best way I can think to describe it for people to understand in 2018 is Gene was the Stephen Avery of 1970. There was a very large community who to this day thinks that Gene was framed by the police. I mean, Stephen Avery aside... [32:24] I feel like everything's kind of pointing to Jean. How can there be this [32:29] Huge group of people who are like, absolutely not. Well, so here's the thing. So there's stuff that makes him look guilty. Like when you actually look at the stuff that was on him. So he's caught wearing women's glasses, looks super fishy. His arrest before, his crimes before, he has these weird moaning sounds that are indescribable. And then someone else hears indescribable noises. So maybe you can connect him with that. The way people think he's framed is they're saying everything in the cave and everything found in the cabin where he was captured,

[32:59] is actually... [33:01] put there by police. And again, like in Stephen Avery's case, I think they kind of have a lot of parallels because Stephen Avery had this like crime he supposedly committed before. Now there's this like second crime of murder. Also, Gene was Native American and it very much became about race and about culture. Now, the one thing I should bring up that his defense used was there was sperm [33:31] DNA on them, right? - Right. [33:33] But… [33:34] What the defense points out is that Gene had had a vasectomy. So they say if he was the killer, he wouldn't have been able to leave sperm. The defense also pointed to some hairs found at the scene that experts said, quote, matched. But when they were just like matching them, all they do to match hairs is look at them under a microscope. And this is kind of junk science now. Because as of 2015, the FBI basically said there were so many problems with it. It's like... [34:03] discredit it completely as a forensic technique. And his lawyer even picked up on that back in the 70s because this is one of the things he said, you can't compare DNA or you can't compare hairs. So you can't prove that this is his hair just because it looks similar. So the defense's strategy was to refute the physical evidence like the hair and the fact that there was sperm. But they also come in hot saying that he was completely framed. And here is the evidence that they say they have of that.

[34:33] come up and testify that that crumpled photo of a woman that was supposedly found in the cave that like was the only thing in the cave linking the cave to gene this man said when he testified that he saw those photos in the sheriff's desk after gene had escaped from prison and before they were ever found in the cave so he thinks that they were planted there [34:56] The second point he brings up is his defense attorney said there was a fingerprint on the flashlight that they don't believe was Jean's. And apparently inside the tent, there was also a footprint in blood that was about a nine and a half and Jean wore an 11 and a half shoe. And so I can see you maybe wearing a shoe size up. [35:18] But to go two shoe sizes down would be kind of difficult. Yeah, definitely. Finally, the evidence that he said was planted is... Do you remember that corncob pipe and that mirror that I said was found where he was captured? I feel like one doesn't just forget a corncob pipe. Right. We've never... We talk about a lot of the same stuff here on Crime Junkie and corncob pipes aren't one of them. Well... [35:40] First of all, again, this reminds me so much of the Stephen Avery case because they had actually this cabin where he was found. He was staying with a friend who lived there. And when I say cabin, I don't know what you imagine, but it's like this itty bitty place that's like three rooms tops, very small. And when they arrested him the first time, they searched the place. They didn't find this corncob pipe and mirror. It wasn't until they did a second search of the place

[36:10] So the defense brings on a witness, Sam Pidgeon, who actually owned the cabin. And he said, listen, they did the search and that stuff was never there. And he said all of a sudden it like appeared there after they came into the second one. So his defense attorney insinuated hardly that. [36:29] police had planted it there. So, you know, going into this trial, Brett, like I've told you the main points of evidence, like where do you lie? Innocent? Guilty? Gene Hart? What do you think? [36:39] I kind of feel like he's guilty. Well, so the jury goes to deliberate. [36:44] They come out... [36:46] And they find him. [36:47] Not guilty. Really? Really. He was still sent back to prison, though, to finish serving his sentence because, remember, he had escaped. So... [36:57] Because of his crimes, because of the escape, he was actually given like 300 years. So he goes back to prison and he ends up dying in prison. He's like working out and has a heart attack. [37:07] But do you want to know the really interesting thing? Always. [37:10] They did an autopsy on him after he died. [37:14] And it was found that his vasectomy never took. So he... [37:19] very well could have actually left the sperm. Now, in 2008, they sent the sperm off for DNA analysis, but it was too degraded to actually test. But... [37:32] Everybody listening, set your Google alerts, people, because at the end of 2017, it was reported that they were sending the DNA off for retesting because in the last 10 years, DNA testing has advanced like crazy. So we could know now.

[37:52] Any day, once and for all, [37:54] if Gene was the guy, and if not, [37:59] Who could it actually be? [38:01] *music* [38:31] This episode of Crime Junkie was researched, written, and hosted by me with co-hosting by [39:01] was done by David Flowers, and all of our music, including our theme, comes from Justin Daniel. Crime Junkie is an audio Chuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve? [39:16] Okay, crime junkies, you know I absolutely love a twist and a turn, especially when it comes to people who turn out to be someone they're not. That's why I have been obsessed with the podcast Chameleon. Every Thursday, host Josh Dean deep dives into a scam so bizarre, it will leave you wondering, how did they get away with that?

[39:34] It is truly one of my favorite podcasts right now and I've been listening for years. [39:38] I think you'll love it too. [39:39] Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.