Sites Unseen: What’s Revealed by Traveling With the Blind

[00:00] This message is brought to you by Apple Card. For a limited time, when you get a new Apple Card and purchase AirPods Pro 3 at Apple, you can earn back the cost up to $250 daily cash. New AirPods Pro and up to $250 daily cash back? Now that's music to my ears. Subject to credit approval, limitations and spend requirements apply. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at apple.co slash AirPods. [00:26] From The New York Times, I'm Michael Bavaro. This is The Daily on Sunday. [00:38] Travel is an inescapably visual experience. [00:42] The entire vocabulary we attach to travel confirms that. We go sightseeing. [00:49] We ask for rooms with a view. We memorialize our trip, or we brag about it, by posting photographs on social media. [00:59] But my colleague Andy Isaacson, an accomplished photographer and writer, recently took a trip with a group of blind travelers that directly challenged the idea that we best understand the world through our eyes. [01:19] and about the deeper layers of experience that are revealed by travelers who cannot see. It's Sunday, May 24th.

[01:32] you [01:36] Andy Isaacson. [01:38] Welcome to The Daily. Thanks so much. [01:40] You have traveled. [01:41] all over the world for your work. You've reported four times from every continent possible. [01:48] on Earth. And I have to say... [01:51] That sounds like the most romantic job. [01:53] in the universe. Do you hear that all the time? [01:55] I have a here dream job. It certainly was my dream job. Was it? Yeah, I was the kid that collected National Geographic magazines and books about wildlife and world history. And I think once I got into journalism, a lot of my... [02:11] Career was driven by a desire to see the world, to lay eyes on these places. [02:16] Can you give us a brief rundown of some of the places you've been in that fully realized dream job career? [02:24] I've been to the South Pole. I've been a few clicks shy of the North Pole. I've been across Tajikistan. [02:32] I spent a month on the world's most remote inhabited island, which is in the South Atlantic. What's that called? Tristan de Kuna. [02:39] You've been around. Yeah, and I think I just always wanted to create... [02:43] in my mind's eye, a visual map of the world. I wanted to go to these places. I wanted to see them with my eyes and be able to visualize anywhere on Earth. To, like, be able to look at a map and put your fingers somewhere and see it because you had seen it. [02:59] And that's what I think drove a lot of my traveling life was to be able to

[03:04] Fill in the dark spots on the map with pictures. [03:10] Thank you. [03:14] For years, I would return from a trip abroad, and a friend of mine would ask me, [03:19] What did it smell like? And I always fumbled for a meaningful answer. [03:24] and [03:26] it made me wonder what kind of deeper layers of experience I was missing. To what degree was my sight so dominating my experience that it was leaving out [03:40] richer, deeper layers of a fuller sense of place. Mm-hmm. [03:52] And how did you try to answer that question? Well, I've tried it in different ways. 17 years ago, I was in Zurich, and I went to the world's first permanent dark restaurant staffed by blind and visually impaired people. [04:10] locker and then the staff... [04:13] member comes out who's blind. You put your hands on his or her shoulder, they lead you into the restaurant. [04:21] I still remember... [04:23] 17 years later, [04:26] the sound of the room. I remember the taste of the tomato sauce. I remember how it felt when I stabbed my face with the ravioli. I think that just shows what happens when we dim certain dominant senses and what that can open up and how that can enrich an experience. And so I think that goes to show just how much richer...

[04:54] travel can be when you activate other senses to have the the charcoal smells the the the animal smells the tour is uh you can hear a lot going on there's a lot of chaos a lot of different things happening in all different directions [05:16] - [05:19] So that idea was kicking around in my head for a while. [05:23] And some years later, I learned about this company called Travelize, which takes this to another level. [05:29] Explain that. [05:31] It pairs visually impaired travelers with sighted travelers as equal companions. And its whole premise is that blind travelers can bring a perspective that deepens the experience. [05:44] And sighted people can also provide details, descriptions, and help with navigation. And together, they could have a deeper, richer travel experience. You're right. Sighted folk just think about the sight, and all the other things are just afterthought. The company was founded by a man named Ammar Lateef. He was raised in Glasgow and lost his sight at 18 due to retinitis pigmentosa. [06:14] couldn't see and I realized that this was it, that I was now blind and people all around me kept saying that I couldn't do this and I couldn't do that.

[06:24] And at the beginning I was believing it, and it was getting me really down. So I was a prisoner in my own head. [06:30] He didn't want to live with those limits, so he pushed himself to travel. He went to Canada for school, and that's where the travel bug bit him. [06:50] becomes bigger. [06:53] Then he became a young professional. He finally had disposable income to do travel. I had money to spend. I wanted to go and see the world. [07:02] But when I approached mainstream tour operators, all of them wouldn't let me book. [07:08] on their group holidays [07:11] mainstream travel companies rejected him. They didn't want him to be on their trips without a caregiver, and they excluded him from more adventurous activities like hiking and skiing. [07:30] And so we decided to create something new. So I came up with the concept of, well, we'll just... [07:36] you know, have sighted travelers come along. There'll be customers as well. They're not going to be... Travelize was a company that would allow people [07:44] blind travelers and sighted travelers to travel together as equal companions, not as clients and helpers, but as co-travelers, so that both could experience the world more fully.

[07:57] So the idea is that this makes for a better travel experience... [08:02] for both of these groups. It wouldn't be a charity. It would be a kind of cross-pollination of travel experiences. Yeah, in providing a multi-sensory travel experience... [08:14] which could benefit obviously the visually impaired travelers. It would also engage all five senses of the sight of travelers and in turn provide a deeper, richer travel experience for them. And then it makes them think about their own life as well. And it gives them a different perspective, gives them inspiration. [08:36] I reached a point in my traveling life in which I was less interested in traveling to a new place, but traveling to a place differently. [08:48] And Travelize offered the promise of that. It offered the promise of a new, different place. [08:58] more immersive way of experiencing [09:00] A travel destination. [09:03] So I flipped the catalog and I saw that they had a trip to India and I thought, what better place to experience this form of travel than the most multi-sensory place on earth? [09:16] One of us is a peacock with one of those really long tails that was running across the road. [09:26] And we're going to hear all about this trip that you took to India right after the break.

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[11:19] you [11:21] Andy, what are we listening to? [11:38] here. [11:39] You have got me. [11:40] This is the... [11:41] Cacophony of Old Delhi. [11:48] We're moving through Old Delhi. We're navigating uneven pavement. We're dodging rickshaws. [11:55] people coming in to try to sell us things. [11:59] Cows walking along the sidewalk. [12:04] Horns. [12:09] Horns. [12:10] And I'm moving through this environment with a visually impaired man named Daniel. [12:15] gently holding my elbow. [12:17] - All right. [12:18] My role is to guide him safely around the streets of Delhi. [12:23] and describe to him the visual details I see. [12:28] to give them a picture of what we're passing through. It's at the end of a long kind of, sort of, plaza with a reflective pool. Daniel, meanwhile, is interpreting India through his own sensory experience.

[12:49] Yeah, I mean, for us, for... If you didn't have people, you'd be walking through that, and you'd... It's perceived you'd sort of walk through an entrance, you'd come into some sort of anti-chamber, and then you'd come for another one, and then, again, you're in a big open space. Yeah, you're in a big open space. And what I noticed... [13:06] as I was describing these visual details, as I was focusing on those sort of [13:11] prosaic elements that quietly define a place. Those are unremarkable things that you might ordinarily [13:18] Passover. [13:20] the black and white painted curbs. [13:24] the way that [13:26] - Yes. [13:27] roadside vendors displayed their [13:29] potato chip bags over the front of their stands like colored beads. [13:38] The neat... [13:39] lane lines that were universally ignored. [13:43] It was sharpening my noticing and... [13:51] As I was describing, [13:53] These visual details... [13:55] I was gaining a more vivid impression of India myself. [13:59] I'm so excited. [14:05] After Delhi. [14:07] Where did you all go next? [14:09] From Delhi we went to the Taj Mahal in Agra. Okay, so now we're in this, the inner sanctum of the, of this entry monument.

[14:22] On that day, I was paired with a new visually impaired traveler, or VI, as Travel Eyes calls them. And his name was Luke. The floor is undulated. [14:34] His texture is smoothish, but not... [14:40] We make our way through security and we line up... [14:44] with all the other tourists angling for photographs. - To see what you can do. - And I attempt, [14:50] to describe for Luke [14:52] One of the most iconic visual pictures in the world. Sunrise at the Taj Mahal. Maybe a thousand meters. The reflective pool is in front of us. It is a gorgeous white marble monument set against a ever whitening sky from the sunrise. It has [15:17] Luke. [15:17] asked me to take photos of him with his GoPro camera. Could you frame that for me? [15:24] And then he held my arm, [15:26] Gently, my elbow with one hand and his cane in the other, and we walk the grounds. [15:35] Let's walk a little forward here. And we're going to take a step down right here. That is quite steep. Yep. The ground is quite level. This is all pure marble. I can tell this, but I'm certainly, I've lost some tactile sort of feedback with these foot coverings on. It's really weird. It is.

[15:56] I'm looking at a sign that says, don't go near monkeys, don't make direct eye contact with monkeys, don't tease or irritate monkeys. [16:11] I was trying to take the assignment very seriously. [16:14] I really felt as though Luke's [16:18] impression [16:19] of the Taj Mahal rested with how well I could describe this place. Right, it's entirely in your hands. [16:26] So I tried to rise to the occasion. Luke, if you tilt your head up, we are looking straight up at the facade of Taj Mahal. So I'm going to put your hand on the facade of the building. [16:45] These are the inlaid precious stones that he was talking about. There's some differences. For example, this bit here is quite glossy. [16:56] I assume that's probably one of the inlaid stones. And it's green. Yeah, colors. [17:05] We are now approaching the inner chamber of the tune. Yeah, you get a lot of echo reverb from people's voices. Is that like a vaulted ceiling? Yes, Bubba's is a vaulted ceiling in this antechamber. [17:26] I've been over a threshold here, Luke. Ah, the sound has increased. This is really, uh, it's like a chorus.

[17:38] We're now in the innermost chamber of the Taj Mahal. Yeah, the echo is double or triple. [17:46] Yeah, you get, it's almost like your inside speaker. [17:56] sort of over to the right where you find the distance. So now we're going through a narrow threshold from where we came. This is a wooden surface that's kind of a boardwalk that they've built over the marble flooring. [18:15] - Thank you. [18:17] And [18:19] I think I was benefiting from moving slowly. [18:23] through the environment. The experience of guiding a blind traveler allowed me to slow down and to notice more. It allowed me to savor it in a way. Can you feel the sun on your face as we pass by? Yeah. These are the... [18:39] kind of lattice marble. What we're looking at is the Yamuna River. This is beautiful, placid river that runs along the backside of the Taj. [19:02] What do you sense in front of us? It's wide open space. It's always running around with the belts. It's a child wearing bangles on her feet, around her ankles. Just turning back around and now just bathed in sun is the whiteness of the Taj Mahal.

[19:29] set up against a blue sky. [19:35] So the next day I was paired with someone named Candy. What is the specific nature of your visual impairment? For me, at this point, I don't have any vision. I had prosthetic eyes. So... And Candy told me when I asked her what she wants descriptions of, she said, [19:54] The whole sites thing doesn't really interest me. I'm more interested in hearing about the reality of India. - Depending on what it is, I like descriptions of the people, like what they're doing, even if it's not the most. [20:09] You know, even if they're like laying on a bench or something. That part I find, you know, has like more of an impact I guess than, you know, there's a tree over here with yellow leaves and [20:25] So I peered out the window and [20:27] I pointed out [20:30] The grittier aspects of... [20:32] of India. [20:34] uh... [20:35] the [20:37] Laundry fluttering outside of apartment buildings. [20:41] and [20:42] the... [20:43] men on the side of the road threading marigold [20:46] garlings or temples. [20:50] And Candy told me one of the most vivid impressions of India that she had had. Kind of interesting, this one kid, little kid came up and like patted my leg, and I reached out to see what it was, and I felt, I don't know if it was a boy or a girl, but their hand, and it was just really rough, like the skin.

[21:12] was rough. And sometimes you would think, you know, children tend to have softer [21:17] skin and softer hands and this was I just thought about [21:23] you know, a child, like, having rough, such rough hands. [21:29] Um... [21:32] I thought, how have they lived? And what's made their hands so rough? Like, what have they been through? [21:44] I was really struck by that. It felt very profound to me. [21:47] that [21:48] This portal, this doorway into India... [21:53] for her was crossed by this moment of touch. In that moment, she was totally transported. [22:03] into [22:04] Thank you. [22:05] the humanity of this place. [22:08] Like people are just real, like they're real, they have real feelings and emotions and you know lives and just the whole... [22:24] Thank you. [22:36] Now that you're home from India, [22:38] I really want to understand how you process this entire experience. But first, we're going to take a very quick break.

[22:56] Summer. It's when we share more time, more memories, and more photos. And at AT&T, the iPhone 17 Pro is your summer essential. Its center stage front camera auto-adjusts the frame to fit everyone into group selfies. You don't even have to turn your phone. And AT&T makes sharing those pics with everyone easy. Right now at AT&T, ask how you can get iPhone 17 Pro on them with eligible trade-in. Requires eligible plan. Terms and restrictions apply. Subject to change. Visit att.com slash iPhone or visit an AT&T store for details. [23:27] This podcast is supported by Bank of America Private Bank. [23:31] You're cut from a different cloth. And with Bank of America Private Bank, you have an entire team tailored to your needs. With wealth and business strategies built for the biggest ambitions, like yours. Whatever your passion, unlock more powerful possibilities at privatebank.bankofamerica.com. What would you like the power to do? Bank of America, official bank of the FIFA World Cup 2026. Bank of America Private Bank is a division of Bank of America N.A. member FDIC and a wholly owned subsidiary of Bank of America Corporation. [24:01] This podcast is supported by GoodRx. Summer's here, and with busier days and changing routines, staying healthy and on budget is top of mind. With GoodRx, you can find big savings at the pharmacy for you and your family. Pets, too. [24:17] Compare prescription prices at over 70,000 pharmacies and instantly find free coupons. Good Rx is not insurance, but it may beat your copay price if you do have insurance.

[24:27] Save at the pharmacy this summer. Go to goodrx.com slash the daily. [24:34] So Andy, when this... [24:35] Trip to India was over. [24:37] And... [24:39] As a journalist, inevitably, you sat down to make sense of it all and write about it. [24:46] What did you... [24:47] come to understand. [24:50] That no single viewpoint, no single impression of a place captures the full picture. And it made me think of this well-known Hindu parable that one day, as we're crossing the Rajasthani desert, our tour director told us about six blind men who encounter an elephant for the first time. The first blind man kept his hand on the side of the creature. An elephant is smooth and solid like a wall. And they each touch a different body part. [25:20] its trunk and imagines a snake. One touches the [25:25] floppy ear and describes an elephant as like a flying carpet. And they all argue, each convinced that his perception is right. And the idea is that everyone experiences the world [25:55] differently and no single viewpoint can capture the whole picture. And understanding others' perspectives is part of seeing the fuller truth.

[26:05] experiencing India [26:08] alongside of the visually impaired travelers and having them describe their perceptions. [26:16] gave me a fuller picture. [26:18] Of India. Mm-hmm. [26:20] Just like the parable says. Just like the parable says. There was a moment in which I remember one of the V.I. travelers at the Taj Mahal described this om that he heard in the mausoleum. The hum, the generic hum in the Taj Mahal, it has like an om note, a pitch, an om pitch just from people talking to each other about the various, various things. And he said most... [26:48] sighted tourists [26:50] would probably never [26:52] have experienced that aspect of the Taj Mahal. [26:56] They would have never... [26:58] really heard [26:59] the resonance of that chamber [27:03] because they're too busy taking photographs. [27:09] I wonder how you think this will change... [27:11] how you travel in the future. [27:14] As a sighted person and so visually dominant, I don't imagine that I'll be able to dim that sense [27:21] But I think it certainly gave me a new... [27:24] and deeper appreciation for turning on my other senses. [27:29] moments in which I could [27:32] feel what is the texture of the air. It reminds me of something that

[27:38] Amar Lateef once told me about the difference between how blind and sighted people experience travel. This is the guy who founded Travelize. Yeah. It's a bit like, I would say that as a blind person, [27:52] traveling is like [27:54] almost like the book version [27:56] For blind travelers, you told me it's like reading a book. You know, because you're imagining things in your own head. So you get these descriptions and then you're imagining them. For sighted travelers... It's like, you know, the film version. It's more like watching a film. Watching the film and, you know, maybe the book version sometimes better. [28:20] Sighted people tend to rely on immediate visual cues. Architecture, color, landscape. [28:27] it's all rendered for them like a movie on a screen. [28:31] For blind travelers, they experience a place in a more interpretive way. It's a more interpretive process. [28:43] in which descriptions feed imagination. [28:47] the world reveals itself more slowly through these layers of sound and touch and scent [28:52] spatial awareness [28:54] And that's what builds the [28:58] impression of a place. [29:00] Fascinating. I'll always have more of that film version [29:05] of a place. Right, how could you not? But I think this experience gave me the tools to unlock more of that book version. The incense that people might be burning or just what they're having for dinner, you can smell their version of Dal compared to our version. The reparations would suggest the arch is perhaps 20 feet up, 30. All the sensors together build a cohesive image comprising more

[29:35] in just sight because... - Well, I did like riding on the street. I mean, so every bump and every turn. - It's almost like a race car because of the engineering. - There's something scraping over there, as if somebody's brushing or cleaning something. - Yeah, it's a guy removing the bird poop. - Oh! [29:56] Please go. [29:58] Andy? [30:00] Thank you very much. We appreciate it. Thank you, Michael. [30:02] you [30:06] Today's episode was produced by Alex Barron, with help from Luke Vander Plukk, [30:12] It was edited by Wendy Doerr. [30:14] Our production manager is Franny Car-Toth, and production assistance came from Dahlia Haddad. This episode was engineered by Daniel Ramirez, and features original music by Dan Powell and Marian Lozano. [30:29] Special thanks to Alishaba Itub, Diane Wong, and Alisha Haridasani Gupta. [30:37] That's it for The Daily on Sunday. I'm Michael Barbaro. [30:43] See you tomorrow. [30:50] This podcast is supported by Bank of America Private Bank. [30:54] Your ambition leaves an impression. What you do next can leave a legacy. At Bank of America Private Bank, our wealth and business strategies can help take your ambition to the next level. Whatever your passion, unlock more powerful possibilities at privatebank.bankofamerica.com. What would you like the power to do? Bank of America, official bank of the FIFA World Cup 2026. Bank of America Private Bank is a division of Bank of America N.A. member FDIC and a wholly owned subsidiary of Bank of America Corporation.

[31:24] you