The Murder of Kitty Genovese

[00:00] People are building things here in America again, and this moment calls for the best of America, our people. Introducing America's Workforce Academy, built by Meta. A program helping to train the next generation of welders, fiber installers, crew leaders, and more. Paid training, a job, and a path to America's future. Because the future is for everyone. Learn more at meta.com slash americasworkforceacademy. [00:31] Cape Fear is a new series now streaming on Apple TV. This 10-episode mystery thriller is executive produced by Martin Scorsese and stars Academy Award winner Javier Bardem, Academy Award nominee Amy Adams, and Emmy nominee Patrick Wilson. [00:45] When convicted murderer Max Cady is released from prison, he begins infiltrating the family of the married attorneys who helped put him behind bars. [00:54] Every good detective needs a partner to support them on important cases. Think of a State Farm agent like your sidekick, there to help you along the way in your search for coverage. State Farm can help you choose the coverage you need, whether it's for your home, car, boat, or even RV. With so many options, it's nice knowing you have help finding what fits for you so you can get back to solving all of life's bigger cases. Go to statefarm.com or use the [01:24] neighbor. State Farm is there. Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid.

[01:41] This is Morbid. It's Morbid at two o'clock. Yeah, I've had falafel and hummus. I've had falafel and garlic dip. Hell yeah. And I'm having a little Ollipop. Oh my god. Having a little sody break. [01:54] a little strawberries and cream Dr. Peppy. I hate to admit how good those actually are. They are. They're so good. Yeah. They're not extra, like, they're not super sweet. They really don't like it. No. But yeah, it's been, you know, it's been a pretty good day today. It's been such a good day. I'm having a little bit of an afternoon. Not in the world, but in the pod lab. No, not in the world. I don't need to clarify that. The world is pretty awful right now. [02:16] But the Pod Lab day has been solid. It has been. I started the day with a big-ass mason jar coffee, so I knew it was going to be a good one. Oh, see, that's smart. I'm crashing a little bit, but that's what the Ollipop is for. You're going to ride that Ollipop. Going to ride that way. Oh, you know what? I started my day off really well. What did you start your day off doing? So you know how I've been telling you guys, like, do, you know. Joy. But, like, don't be hard on yourself. Like, do it small. So I'm not being hard on myself, is what I'm saying. [02:46] I got in a good habit of that and then I fell out of it. And so now I'm like, okay, [02:51] My problem is I go too hard, too fast. I put too much pressure on myself. So I said, and that's not how you habit stack. That is not how you habit stack. And I've learned this. So I said, okay, for a couple of weeks, get used to waking up early. [03:02] Don't do anything productive when you wake up early. Get your coffee. Sit quietly. Do something that's enjoyable. Don't feel like you have to be productive. Just get used to that early morning thing. So I'm in the middle of that, and I'm doing well, everybody. Good job. And this morning I said, you don't have to be productive yet. It's not next week. Do this for a week. We start on Monday. I made my coffee, and then I sat down, and I said, oh.

[03:24] I should watch something. Yeah. Because, like, no one's awake to be loud. And you actually could have watched something fucking horrifying. I almost did. It's surprising that you didn't, actually. Well, here's the funny part. So I go into my, like, you know, my, like, Netflix or Prime, and I'm looking through it, and I'm like, oh, I'm going to watch a horror movie. Yeah. Because, like, no one's awake. I can do this. That's what I would have expected. So I was going to watch, like, Scream or something. Like, I was like, just a comfort thing. And then I flipped by, and I saw Center Stage. [03:53] a great pick the movie center motherfucking stage the one with jimmyra kwai's canned heat yes yeah of course that one i haven't seen i probably haven't seen center stage since you were pregnant and we watched it at the apartment that's the last time i watched it yeah so that was before that was when i was in high school earlier i was like oh my god i haven't seen that movie in like a few years i'm like that's literally 10 years almost that's i saw it and [04:23] It's from 2000. It is a 26 year old movie. I saw this when it came out. That's we watched this like Debbie will tell you we watch this constantly, constantly. And I saw it and something deep in my soul said. Yeah. [04:37] Bitch, you watch that right now. See, now I have a question for you. [04:41] I think I know the answer, and I think we vary. Out of these two iconic dance movies, which do you pick? Center Stage or Save the Last Dance? Center Stage. Center Stage. See, I vary. Save the Last Dance is my absolute favorite. Save the Last Dance is great. I might watch that later. I'm taking nothing away from that chair routine. I don't take nothing away from that. You better not. Nothing. Oh, wow. It's iconic. Oh, wow. I can't just move on from that. Maybe I'll wake up early and watch that tomorrow.

[05:11] started my day off, right? Because it was... [05:13] The nostalgia that this movie brought me like the girl who plays Maureen was in all those movies during that time period. What is her name? I need to find it now because I saw her and I said, oh, you and me. [05:27] We've been through so much. You and Maureen. Me and Maureen. Because she was in 10 Things I Hate About You. She was in Drive Me Crazy. [05:34] Remember that banger of a film? Oh, my God. Crossover with Center Stage and Save the Last Dance. Ten Things I Hate About You. There you go. Julia Stiles. We got it. Who is it that plays Maureen? I'm looking it up right now. Susan May Pratt. Oh, wait. She was the girl who was obsessed with Shakespeare, like in love with Shakespeare and Ten Things I Hate About You. Yeah. Yeah. And she's like the bitch in Drive Me Crazy. [05:56] She's in so many things of that time, and then she just went away. And I read, and of course... [06:01] because I am who I am as a human. As I'm watching this, I was like, what is that lady up to right now? And I looked and I found an article where she was like, yeah, I was in all these things in the early 2000s. I was in every teen movie. And then nothing happened after that. Damn. And I was like, Susan May. Justice for Susan May Pratt is what I say. It's really tough for people with three first names. Yeah. People with their first names get a bad rap. Also, fun little fact that my... [06:30] My hyper fixation journey. Tell me everything. She had no ballet experience before center stage. Wow. Blew my fucking mind. I know. That's actually. And she played the star ballet dancer. Yeah. That's actually nuts. Yeah.

[06:44] So there's that Zoe Saldana's in that and she is... [06:47] a goddess i gotta watch this yeah i haven't seen this in so long guys i highly recommend watching center stage at 5 30 in the morning check it with a hot coffee let's fucking go girls i highly recommend feeling blue watch center stage at 5 30 in the morning she's been in a really good mood today folks i have it set me right i love it me right i may watch drive me crazy tomorrow morning i mean that would be a reckless way to start off your morning absolutely would like that in the [07:17] I watch Save the Last Dance first thing in the morning because I cry. No, that's not a first. You don't need to cry. No, not first thing in the morning. You don't need deep emotions. You need... [07:27] teen nostalgia. [07:29] is what you need yeah i just woke up from a really scary dream this morning you did that there was like a robber in your house on the camera but then we were also getting dinner with patricia atchall from southern charm wild miss and i was lost in miss pat's house and i couldn't get to anybody i would get lost in that house [07:45] That house is gorgeous. No. That's one of those not my house, but I'd know my way around houses. Yeah. That's honestly, yeah. [07:52] That house? [07:54] gorgeous. I'm obsessed with that house. It's kind of just, like, on the road, I guess. Like, people have driven past it, and they're like, it's literally just, like, right there. That's just... Not to triangulate Miss Pat's location, but... I mean, it's on 7th John. It's a pretty, uh... [08:06] iconic house it is um but yeah and it was like the burglar from the sims no but it was a lot scarier than that it was it was dressed like that but it didn't have the big uh what's the thing over it yeah it did not have a plum bob remember when you had a plum bob yeah that was scary and it was saying creepy things into the camera and i was trying to get to you but i was lost in his hats

[08:25] I hate that. I mean, you get lost in Miss Pat's, you know, what can you do? I wouldn't. But it was in your old apartment, which was super weird. I was very transported. And then I, I hate a dream that you wake up from like first thing in the morning like that. Yeah. Where it's like, I wasn't like, I didn't wake up like shrieking or anything, but it was like, just like unsettling. Yeah. I don't like that. Yeah. And then I ran into my neighbor who's like the nicest lady and she was so put together and I was wearing... [08:50] I one hadn't brushed my teeth yet. I was wearing cherry pants. Yeah. And Drew shoes. Hell yeah. It was really embarrassing. That's why I'm really happy that it seems like my whole neighborhood is very the same in the morning. [09:05] oh this woman feels like we're all just rolling out there in some sweatpants i think she has like a job to go to that's not like that she has to like look nice yeah like i think she has to like look nice and she looked great in fact i told her she had great loafers while i was wearing my husband's shoes that's nice my husband's van clompers but you know what you threw a compliment to somebody first thing in the morning i did you started her day off right i did and dolo's day started off right she fucking loves our neighbor's dog so there you go yeah you know you do what you

[09:35] Starting your day with us. Maybe you're starting your day with us right now and you're like, wow, this is ridiculous. You're like, holy shit, what are you guys doing? Well, you know, if you need one more thing to do, maybe go preorder The Butcher Legacy, the third book in my series. What's the link? You can get it at butcherlegacy.com. You can get it anywhere you want. I believe there are still some signed copies left at Barnes & Noble, but there's a limited amount. So go. Those are only at Barnes & Noble right now, the signed copies. [10:05] Go grab them wherever you want. And they're special editions with fun illustrations and sprayed edges. There is. That's fun. So go get whatever one you feel you are drawn to. There's an option for all. [10:15] you know? Also, check out we are, if you're listening to the rewatcher, continue to do so, please. And if you're not, what the heck? Come on. True Blood's so fun. True Blood is really, really good. We're having a blast. We are going to be covering next Wednesday the penultimate episode and then, obviously, the season finale the week after that. So, tune in. And, you know, it's going to be awesome because Ash is going to find out the identification of a serial killer on True Blood. And I have so many theories. And I can't wait for her to find out. I'm so excited, but I'm also [10:45] know i'm excited for you to find out okay uh but yeah join us over there it's a lot of fun and i think that's i shouldn't say that's all business but you know that's all our business and pleasure yeah i would say check it um but let's get into the case shall we we shall so the case i have today for us tell me is the murder of kitty genovese oh i'm i did take a psychology class in college

[11:15] of people should be familiar with this if you took any psychology classes or any true crime or true crime any criminal justice classes uh anything like that in school usually they they bring this up um so this case is [11:30] is wild. [11:32] It's very tragic. It's very sad and very tragic and trigger warning because it's like very brutal. So let's talk about first who Kitty Genovese was. Mm-hmm. [11:44] Catherine Kitty Genovese was born July 7th, 1935. She was born in the Park Slope neighborhood of Brooklyn, New York. She was the oldest of five children, born to Vincent and Rachel Genovese. Of the five Genovese children, quote, Kitty was the talker, bright eyed and full of pep. Oh, I love that. The family was definitely not well off financially. And, you know, life could be a little difficult. They're in a cramped Brooklyn apartment together. That's a lot of people. Yeah. Brooklyn stuff. Yeah. And think about New York apartments. [12:14] right now and there's [12:16] seven people in there. No. Yeah. But they generally, like, they got along with each other and they cared for one another best they could. It seemed like a good existence. That's nice. By the time she reached high school in the fall of 1949, Kitty was definitely one of the more popular girls in school. She was killing it. [12:33] And she was starting to get attention from the boys in her class. Of course. You know? We love love. One of her former classmates, Angelo Lanzone, said, Kitty was attractive, but there was more to her than looks. Kitty had charm. Oh, honey. Which, Angelo. Angelo. I love Angelo. Just being like, she was real pretty, but she was also awesome. I think she's a cancer, so she's definitely deep. She's a charm. Yeah. And while Kitty may not have been the best student among her peers at the time, she did excel in courses like English and music. She seemed like she had a...

[13:02] A creative spirit to her. Yeah, that makes sense. And she was very liked by her teachers. She was liked by other students. She was just like killing it. Yeah. Kitty. Kitty. So by the time Kitty finished high school in 1953, New York was changing. It was just changing as a city. And there were fears over rising crime rates. It was just becoming wild. Not long after she graduated from high school, her mother was walking home one afternoon and witnessed a shooting in the street in broad daylight. [13:32] walked into the shooting. She was close enough to see the victim's blood filling the sidewalk cracks. Oh, that'll change you. Yeah. Rachel's one and only experience as a witness to violent crime was more than enough. She has a whole family to take care of. Yeah. And that summer, Vincent bought a small ranch house in New Canaan, Connecticut, and began making arrangements to move the family to the suburbs, about 50 miles north of the city. He told the rest of the family, it's safer there. Nice people. I think that was happening a lot during this time. Yeah. People were moving outside of the city, city. [14:02] For sure. And obviously, the move to New Canaan was supposed to bring them out of the city that they saw as having rising crime rates. But Vincent also hoped that the new environment and higher, you know, the higher caliber of community is what he felt it was, would encourage Kitty, especially, to meet a nice man and get married. Have some kids. You know, and to that point, Kitty had gone on a handful of dates with boys at school, but never anything serious that lasted more than a few dates.

[14:32] longings and queasiness. She's like, she's like, not for me. So to Vincent and Rachel's great surprise, when they announced the move to Connecticut, [14:41] Kitty said no. [14:43] I'm not moving. Hello? Yeah, she frankly told her parents, I can't go. I feel free in New York. I'm alive here. Oh, and at first, the thought of their daughter staying behind in the city was out of the question. She was an adult at this point. And, you know, she wanted to live on her own. There was really nothing they could do to stop it. Yeah, they could try to convince her, but you can't stop it. Oh, that's got to be so rough. Because they're like, we come with us because we feel like it's safer. And then this happened. Yeah. So she promised them she would find a safe [15:13] Canaan on weekends to visit. All right. I mean, really, what more can you ask her to do? And although Rachel and Vincent still didn't like the idea of leaving her behind, Kitty's assurances seemed genuine and eventually they gave their blessing and were like, fine. [15:25] Now, in that first year on her own, Kitty stayed in the extra room in her grandfather's apartment and found work as a secretary at an insurance company. And in time, she'd saved enough money to move out. And by the end of 1954, she found an apartment of her own. Her job paid enough, but it kind of lacked the social aspect that Kitty had been hoping for. So just a few months after moving into the apartment, she quit her job and found a new job waiting tables. [15:50] When the job as a server fell through, she found another, this time as a hostess at an Italian restaurant. But that, too, really wasn't what she wanted. And it was only by chance that after the hostess job came to an end, Kitty finally found what she had been looking for when she answered an ad looking for a bartender at the neighborhood bar in Hollis, Queens. Like you said, she's chatty. She's got like a genetic. Yeah. And as a bartender, the money she made in tips was more than enough to support herself.

[16:20] provided a community that she was looking for, especially since her family had moved to Connecticut. Restaurant crews get so close. Really tight. And in time, she moved up from bartender to manager and began settling into life in Queens. Wow, good for her to be so young and to make moves like that, like legit money moves. Yeah, she's moving on up. Now, as promised, Kitty kept in regular touch with her parents. She visited as often as she could. She was telling the truth. Yeah. [16:50] or even dated someone seriously. They're just being parents. They're from a different generation. In 1959, to appease her parents, Kitty accepted a date with a man from Connecticut. Seeing how happy it made her parents, she didn't have the heart to tell them she wasn't at all interested in him. So she let the relationship go on, and later that year, they got married. [17:11] oh no so she like really appeased her parents she sure did just two months later though the marriage was annulled [17:17] It... [17:18] It just wasn't going to work. It just wasn't going to work. Oh, Kitty. Kitty's, you know, end of her marriage was a serious disappointment to what I didn't mention before is her deeply Catholic parents. I don't know if you guys got that idea. Yeah, I didn't mention it because I thought it was implied. But it was not to be the last embarrassment suffered by Rachel and Vincent Genovese in their eyes. [17:48] arrested for bookmaking for taking bets on the horse races from patrons at the bar damn bets are also a big bar thing i remember those football squares yeah did you ever get the yeah football squares are huge oh yeah yeah and it's a little different you know with horses well and it's like the offense is relatively minor yeah in even in the law's eyes i mean and it resulted in a 50 fine i was literally just gonna say is it just a fine but they both lost their jobs oh which

[18:18] these parents felt that they [18:20] they got from that she managed to land on her feet and she quickly found a new job tending bar at ev's 11th hour a neighborhood bar in hollis and moved into a whole a motel room a few blocks away okay so a few years later kitty's life would again change dramatically this time for the better oh um however she explained the failed marriage to her parents in 1959 it almost certainly wasn't the truth [18:42] Okay. However she had said was happening. The fact was the queasiness that Kitty had always felt when it came to dating and her fail, you know, quote unquote failed marriage was likely due to the fact that she did not have an interest in men. Yeah, I was starting to wonder. Yeah, like a romantic interest in men. Of course, in the late 1950s, early 1960s, coming out as a lesbian would have had serious consequences. [19:12] I'm interested. [19:13] Yeah. Or involuntarily placed in a mental health facility. Yeah, shit was fucking wild. So Kitty had good reason to keep that to herself. Whether or not she chose to reveal that side of herself to her family, she wasn't entirely closeted. And on occasion, she would visit the underground, you know, gay and lesbian bars in Greenwich Village. So she was at least like exploring that side of her, which was good for her. And it was at one of these bars called the Swing [19:43] true romantic connection with. Mary Ann Zalonko. [19:47] She was a few years younger than Kitty, but she'd been on her own since the age of 16 and had been supporting herself in New York ever since, which...

[19:55] Takes a tough chick. Badass. Yeah. Essentially. Like if you could make it in New York from 16 years old. Yeah. That's it. You're a straight up New Yorker. One spring night in 1963, Marianne stopped into the swing rendezvous for a drink and was approached by a woman at the bar. [20:11] The woman asked, don't I know you from somewhere? Oh, I love it. And as opening lines go, it was definitely, you know, a tired one. So Marianne was like, I don't think so. You know, Marianne had been hearing that from the age of 16 onward. No. And she kind of brushed it off as a, you know, a failed pickup attempt. Yeah. But the woman just smiled and said, oh, I think I do. I'm Kitty. [20:33] So she wasn't deterred by it. She said, I will continue with this line. She was like, I'm not embarrassed. I thought that was great. [20:40] I love that. So the pickup line might have been a tired one, but Marianne found it pretty hard to resist Kitty's charm and her infectious laugh. Which a lot of people said. She said, we just hit it off. We meshed. I'm very quiet. And she talked a lot. We both had struggles with our sexuality, but we had a quick bond. A few days later, Marianne returned home one afternoon and found a note from Kitty taped to her door. And it said, [21:03] at the street corner phone booth at 7. Kitty G. Stop. Kitty G. That night, they made plans to meet at Seven Steps, which was a nearby bar. And from that point on, they were practically inseparable. Love, love, love. Kitty and Marion. For weeks, the two would meet at bars or get together at Kitty's motel room around the corner of the bar. And Marion said, but that's not real life. Kitty was happy, but it made me nervous. I didn't think it was safe. Who lives in a motel?

[21:33] assistance the two began looking for an apartment and soon found a one-bedroom on austin street in the kew gardens neighborhood of queens right next to the long island railroad station okay now decades later marianne would remember that time as quote one of the happiest years of my life oh that breaks my heart ruins me because you know what happens they both work days kitty managing l's 11th hour and marianne tending bar at club chris leaving their nights free to spend together nice [21:59] When Rachel and Vincent Genovese first visited the apartment, Kitty introduced Marianne as her friend. But after that, the question about her meeting a nice man and getting married came to an end. Well, that's good. And Marianne said, I think her mother knew. It's nice they stopped asking. And Marianne said, she was always very nice to me. All right. Nice. But later, after Kitty's death, their attitude towards Marianne changed. Okay, well, that's really shitty. Starting at the funeral where they refused to acknowledge her. [22:27] Oh, I really don't like that. And Marianne said, I think it was because of our lifestyle. [22:31] It wasn't because of your lifestyle. It was because... [22:35] of really [22:37] messed up thinking 100 it's said you don't have to take that blame no i don't like when people refer to [22:45] being gay as a lifestyle i know that has been said to me before and it pisses me the fuck because it's like is being straight a lifestyle no because a lifestyle a lifestyle is a choice exactly being gay is not a choice like just like being straight is not really a choice i love a cozy lifestyle yes that's my choice right i chose that lifestyle like that's it that's not the same i just got so triggered in that moment i remembered like an exact instance marianne is saying it's because

[23:15] Because that's what, you know, she's from this era as well. So that's how she heard it said to her. That's what I'm saying. Like that was put on her. Yeah, exactly. [23:31] you [23:32] Improving your sleep can feel overwhelming. It's like, do I need a new mattress? Do I need to check this tracker that I'm on? Should I be taking this supplement? Oh my god, I think I need blackout curtains. Whoa, it's overwhelming. Upgrade your sleep by upgrading your bedding though with bowl and branch. It's simple. Signature sateen sheets, breathable pillows, cozy waffle bed blankets, I freaking love a waffle bed blanket, and beautifully crafted comforters work together [24:02] just a bed with bowl and branch bedding that feels softer, more breathable, and way more inviting. Start with the signature sheet set, then add the comforter or the waffle blanket to finish the bed. I personally love how the waffle blanket looks, and it's so cozy, cozy, cozy. I... [24:19] I really have a hard time with sheets until I found Bowlin Branch. I don't know if you guys have had this problem before. It's like three o'clock in the morning. You roll over and your fitted sheet comes with you and it drives you insane. Not with Bowlin Branch, honey. Ever since I got Bowlin Branch, my sheets stay where they're supposed to. My waffle blanket is covered, cozifying me, and my temperature is regulated. I love it. Upgrade your sleep with Bowlin Branch. Get 15% off your first order plus free shipping at bowlinbranch.com slash morbid with code morbid.

[24:49] That's BolandBranch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D, branch.com slash morbid. Code morbid to unlock 15% off. Exclusions apply. [24:59] This is a paid ad by BetterHelp. There have been times in my life where I have been work, work, work, and nothing else, but that simply doesn't work for me. So I feel like the older I've gotten, I've really gotten much better at taking a step back, being able to prioritize a work-life balance that works for me. [25:15] Not everybody thrives when life gets busy. You might catch yourself feeling drained, even during things that you usually enjoy, or realize that you've been pushing yourself more than you need to. It's important to take care of yourself when things get busy by resting, recharging, and saying no when you need to. [25:31] Therapy can also be a great way to get out of autopilot and get a solid reset. Therapy with BetterHelp may help you understand your needs, feel more confident setting boundaries, and create a rhythm that feels sustainable. BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform. Just take a short questionnaire to identify your needs and preferences, and BetterHelp will handle the initial therapist matching work for you. You can also feel confident knowing that BetterHelp [26:01] Take a pause with therapy. BetterHelp can help life feel manageable again. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash morbid. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash morbid. [26:16] Every good detective needs a partner to support them on important cases. Think of a State Farm agent like your sidekick, there to help you along the way in your search for coverage. State Farm can help you choose the coverage you need, whether it's for your home, car, boat, or even RV. With so many options, it's nice knowing you have help finding what fits for you, so you can get back to solving all of life's bigger cases.

[26:45] Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. [26:48] now regardless of how kitty's parents or anyone else felt about their relationship kitty and could not have been happier good good for fucking they both deserve to be immediately after moving in kitty began setting up her apartment determined to make it a cozy home because she was choosing a cozy lifestyle and getting to know their neighbors and [27:09] Billy Corrado, one of her neighbors, said she was super nice with a smile for everybody. Oh, she sounds fucking awesome. Kitty Genovese sounds like a fucking badass. She does. Now, after moving in, they quickly settled into a quiet domestic life together. And on their nights off, Kitty would read fiction while Marianne painted. Oh! Like... [27:28] They talked about art, music, movies, their shared interest in astrology. Oh, bitch. You would have loved them. I would love, especially to be interested in astrology back then. And OG, astrology, girly. Yeah. Come on. Yeah. They really were living this little idyllic. [27:46] Just moment together and for for to be in the 1960s for them to be a gay couple in the 1960s. That was hard to find. Absolutely your own idyllic. [27:56] life bubble yeah together where you were unburdened by everyone else's fucking opinions about it so they but they found that together and it makes me happy that makes me so happy and just like she's living such a new york life which makes me so happy because she that's what she wanted and where she felt free i feel free i feel alive oh [28:14] Now,

[28:15] it's going to take a rough turn. Of course. I know I've set you up for this and I'm, [28:19] But it gives me a little comfort to know that she had this like idyllic life with someone she loved before this happened. But this is going to be a hard time. [28:28] Now, at around 2.30 a.m. on March 13th, 1964, Kitty finished closing up Ev's 11th hour and headed out to her red Fiat parked in the lot. [28:38] After years of managing the bar, Kitty had gone through this routine a million times, and it all felt so routine that she didn't even think to survey her surroundings when she left the bar. She might have noticed if she did. [28:51] A man in the Chevy Corvair sitting at the light watching her. If she looked in her rearview mirror as she pulled out the lot, she might have seen this man do a U-turn in the middle of the road to follow her car. But even at that late hour, it's unlikely that Kitty had danger on her mind. After all, Queens was the safest of the boroughs at this point. She felt so at home here that it never would have occurred to her that something terrible could happen. Well, that's it. Like you said, she has been enmeshed in this place for years. This is her home. [29:19] She feels safe. Now, pulling off the parkway at the Queens Boulevard exit, Kitty turned onto Austin Street and then parked in the lot for the Long Island Railroad, ignoring the no parking signs, just as everyone in the neighborhood always does. I was going to say, fuck that. Yeah. As she got out of the car, she fumbled with her keys. She probably didn't notice the white Corvair slowly pass by and pull off the side road a half a block away. After lingering a moment to lock her car doors, Kitty turned and began walking towards the building.

[29:46] The door that led to Kitty and Marianne's second floor apartment was in the back of the building, which required her to walk down a dark alley, lit faintly by the street lamp by the railroad tracks at the other end, but pretty dark. Yeah. Yeah. [29:58] Maybe Kitty finally caught on to this man who'd been following her since she left the bar. Or maybe she simply got the feeling that something wasn't right. We don't know. Whatever the case, she started running towards the streetlight. And the man behind her ran after her. Oh, God, that's an absolute nightmare. [30:14] Most women know that feeling. Absolutely. Of running from somebody. So many people, so many women have been in that situation. Now, she'd reached the entrance to the bookstore when he finally caught up with her, knocking her to the ground and driving his hunting knife into her back, yanking it out, and then stabbing her again. Oh, my God. It happened this fast. And that's a split second. Yeah. [30:36] Several of Kitty's neighbors were awoken by the screams they heard coming from the street. She shouted, oh my God, he stabbed me. Please help. Please help me. At that, one of the windows in the apartment above shot open... [30:49] And a man, Robert Moser, stuck his head out and he shouted, let that girl alone. [30:54] thinking that she was being harassed by someone. [30:57] The sound of Moser's voice startled Kitty's attacker, who looked up at the man in the window, then shrugged his shoulders and walked down Austin Street towards his car. He was just like, whatever. Oh, my God. Now, with her attacker having fled, Kitty struggled to her feet and began making her way towards the back of the building, presumably trying to get inside to safety where she would find help. Yeah. Now that the scene was quiet again, those who had been woken by the screams assumed probably that whatever commotion that was about, it was over. So they turned off the lights and went back to bed.

[31:27] God. [31:28] 10 or so minutes later. [31:30] 10. [31:31] Or so minutes later, those few who were still awake and still watching out their windows saw the man in the white car return. Ten minutes later? He came back. [31:40] So, and it's like, what was he planning to do? Because she could have found her way inside at that point. Like, was he going to break into the apartment looking for her? Or was he coming back for somebody else? Well, now his face was covered with a wide brimmed hat. [31:53] And the man appeared to be looking for something, searching the area around the bookstore, the parking lot of the train station, and eventually behind the building where he found what he was looking for. Kitty Genovese was slumped in front of the back door to her building, a locked door preventing her from reaching the safety of her apartment. Oh, my God. What happened next occurred out of the view of any neighbor's windows. So the specific details of the attack are unknown. [32:23] There were 13 stab wounds scattered over the body, nine in front and four in back. A stab wound in the throat, [32:32] and several slashes on the right hand. [32:35] That's unreal. The wounds on the hand were jagged, indicating Kitty had tried to fight off her attacker. But by that time, her injuries would have left her with little energy to do anything. Despite the number and severity of stab wounds, the cause of death was listed as bilateral pneumothorax, meaning the air from a punctured lung had filled her chest and compressed her lungs, causing her to suffocate. Oh, that's a horrible way to go.

[33:00] After stabbing Kitty repeatedly... [33:03] The man sexually assaulted her and robbed her of the $49 she had on her and then fled to his car. [33:11] Piece of shit. Garbage. Just moments after the attacker fled the scene, her next door neighbor, Sophia Farrar, got a phone call from one of the other residents in the building. The frantic neighbor told Farrar that Kitty had been attacked and was outside by the vestibule. Without hesitating, Sophia dropped the phone and ran down the back stairs. When she reached the door, she found that it wouldn't budge because Kitty was slumped against it. A moment later, Sophia was able to get the door open and found Kitty, quote, in a pool of blood, [33:41] gurgling and barely conscious. Sophia shouted for someone to call an ambulance, then held the gravely wounded kitty in her arms, whispering to her that help was on the way. I'm so glad she wasn't alone throughout all of that, but she was alone through so much of that. It's true. And in a 2016 interview, Farrar said, I only hope that she knew it was me that she wasn't alone. Yeah. What happened next remains pretty unclear with some details kind of like lost through time and others because the [34:09] One thing that you should know about this is that the myths and untruths surrounding this case are aplenty. Yeah, it's heavily debated. It's very difficult to ascertain fact from fiction and what's been told through a game of telephone for a long time. Now, several people in the building called the police at various points during the attack. But because no one could tell what exactly was happening, they couldn't adequately convey the emergency.

[34:39] There was no 911 system at the time, which is wild to think about. Nuts, bonkers. Was under the impression that Kitty had been beaten up or robbed, so the report wasn't given the highest priority. Right. Which, whoa. By the time the real nature of the attack had been reported, nearly 40 minutes had passed, and it would be another half hour before the ambulance arrived at 4.15 a.m. By then, it was too late. [35:02] Kitty had died from her injuries on the way to the hospital. Now, a short time after Kitty was taken away by ambulance, Marianne heard a pounding at the door. [35:10] She said, it woke me up and I was scared. Who comes knocking at four in the morning? So she cautiously opens it to find a police officer on the other side. The officer explained that Kitty had been attacked and was on her way to the hospital. She had lost a lot of blood and it didn't look like she was going to survive. [35:27] Marianne said, I went numb. As they stood there in the doorway, another officer approached and informed them that Kitty was dead. [35:35] Oh, at four in the morning. So 4 a.m. she hears a knock at the door. It's a police officer who says the love of your life has been attacked and is on the way to the hospital and we don't think she's going to make it. And another officer comes up while you're processing that and says she actually died. She didn't make it. [35:50] Like one two punch. How do you ever recover from that? How do you process that? And at such a young age, too, like your mid-20s, that's probably the first person you've ever truly loved. How the fuck do you ever move on from that? I don't know how you survive. So for the next several hours, Marianne sat in the kitchen with her neighbor, Carl Ross, who brought over a bottle of vodka. Outside, police and reporters were milling about the area, taping off the scene, snapping photos.

[36:20] the presence of Carl Ross. In his report, Sang wrote that Ross, quote, claimed to be consoling Marianne while swilling vodka and acting obnoxious. When Sang asked to speak to Marianne alone and Carl protested, [36:34] Which, like, don't do that. Yeah, you gotta. The detective physically pulled him out of his chair and shoved him out the door. Yeah. Angry, frustrated, and probably a little drunk, Ross kicked a hole in one of the first floor doors, causing Sang to place him under arrest for disorderly conduct. That's like, babe, you're not doing yourself any favors. And it's also, like, with everything going on right now, I just wouldn't... [36:54] Like, because you're also adding to Marianne's, like, shit right now. Like, she's going through enough. It just doesn't need to be about you. You might think you're helping, but you're very much hurting. Yeah, you're just making it about you right now and Marianne's the one going through this. Yeah. [37:06] Now, I don't know. [37:07] I also don't think he should have been arrested. No. I think you just tell him, like, you get, just go outside. Like, go sleep it up. You shouldn't arrest him for that. No. Obviously, everyone's under. Well, you know, he did, like, damage your public property. I didn't even think of that. In my head, I was like, oh, he kicked a door. You know, it happens. Yeah, he kicked a hole in it. That does suck. And now it's like somebody's got to fucking fix that. It's just such like a high, I'm like, fuck. Like, the emotions are so high in that situation. It sucks all around. It's true. They probably just arrested him to get him the fuck out of there. They probably did because he was drunk. Yeah. That's not good. [37:37] Yeah, I just feel bad for these people. I know, this is a lot. The arrest of Carl Ross does reflect the misplaced priorities and bias that would ultimately run through much of this case, though, which is frustrating. A young woman had been brutally murdered by a stranger at the doorstep of her own apartment building. It's like, maybe let's focus on that. Yeah, and it's like the first action taken in the investigation was to arrest a neighbor. Can we look somewhere else? Yeah. When homicide detectives John Carroll and Jerry Burns took over the investigation later that morning, things didn't exactly improve.

[38:07] Oh, great. After aggressively interviewing the neighbors in the building, the detectives turned their attention to Marianne, who was treated more as a suspect than a victim. A suspect? Yeah, Marianne. You woke her out of a dead sleep. Marianne said it was good cop, bad cop, but the bad one, Burns, did most of the talking. For hours, they peppered her with questions that, in retrospect, didn't seem all that relative to what happened. I'm sure. They wanted to know how long she'd known Kitty, who their friends were, how often they argued, and most importantly, [38:37] sexual. Oh, because they were saying, are you a lesbian? Because that was considered a sexual problem. She said, I was still in shock. It took me a while to realize what he was getting at. They thought I might be the one who killed her. [38:49] unreal she didn't even know that's what they were getting at unreal it eventually became clear to marianne that the detectives were more interested in her relationship with kitty than they were finding the man responsible for murdering her and the more they pressed her the less comfortable she became the other thing it's like go ask around from the apartment a man literally saw the person who did this you're aggressively talking to the neighbors they're going to tell you they saw a man [39:14] She said, I didn't want to talk to the cops, especially not Burns, but they harassed me for six hours trying to get me to say something bad about Kitty. Finally, they got me to admit it. Okay, we were lesbians. [39:25] Yeah. Decades later, Marianne would still regret revealing that information. She said, I was always upset with myself for revealing that. What right did they have to know? [39:34] It's true what right did they have to know, but when you're pressed for six hours, I'm surprised you didn't say more of your life. Now, in the days that followed, Marion shut herself up in her apartment while more than a few neighbors began keeping their distance from her. That's horrible. Police officers and detectives continued coming around to ask prying questions about their relationship that felt more like accusations than anything else. A few days later at the funeral, things only got worse as Kitty's parents rejected Marion entirely and turned their back on her. That's shitty.

[40:04] Kitty's brother Vincent said, my mother couldn't handle it. We read about it in the papers, the gruesome description. A few days after the funeral, the police finally took Marion's name off the suspect list. [40:16] Why couldn't even let her get through the funeral? Here's the thing. [40:19] Normally, when somebody is murdered, if they are living with a partner, of course, you ask the partner first. This is a little different. This is so much different. She's outside on the street. She's not in the apartment. The door was locked, and that's the whole reason she couldn't get in. She was sleeping in the apartment, and neighbors literally saw a man attacking her. They're eyewitnesses. It's like this is a very different situation. I would always say it makes sense to ask the partner first because you've got to rule them out. But not here. This is not one of those. And I feel like they railroaded her at first. [40:49] 100%. Now, on March 18th, less than a week after the murder, Corona, New York resident Raul Cleary was standing outside his house when he saw a young man he didn't know coming out of his neighbor's house carrying a television. Cleary called out and asked the man what he was doing. He said, it's OK, I'm helping them move as he loaded the TV into his Chevy Corvair. Now, Cleary went back inside and called one of the other neighbors to ask whether the family across the street was moving, which is a good neighbor. [41:19] were not, then hung up and called the police. Not wanting the man to get away before the police arrived, Raul waited until the man was back inside the house. Then he went out to the Chevy, lifted the hood, and removed the distributor cap. [41:32] ducking back into his apartment before the man returned king shit is not even the description that's next level that's a neighbor that you want to like take care of your shit while you're away yeah because he's not

[41:44] All he's doing is making it so that car won't run. He's not breaking it. He's not. He just removed a cap. That he can put back when he needs to. That he can put back if you are proven to not be a robber. Iconic behavior. Really Raul. Raul forever. Now, when the man came back out and found his car wouldn't start, he simply got out and walked away down the street, giving no indication that he was committing a crime. [42:14] Yeah. The young man with the white Chevy turned out to be 29-year-old Queens resident Winston Mosley. Winston Mosley. At the time of his arrest, Mosley was married with three children. Are you fucking kidding me? Had a decent job at a nearby factory. And most importantly, he had no criminal record. That is next level. To their surprise, when he was interrogated by police, he freely admitted to having robbed the house in Corona and even claimed to have committed many similar break-ins in the past. [42:44] He told police he had given most of the appliances to his father, who owned a repair shop and could resell them. [42:50] The officers paid a visit to Mosley's father, who confirmed that his son had brought him several items in the past. [42:56] Now, despite his calm demeanor and almost eager confession to robbery, investigators couldn't help but feel there was something he was hiding. [43:03] So they decided to hold on to him a little longer for the robberies while they did some digging. It didn't take long for them to realize that Mosley's car matched the description of the car seen outside Kitty's building on the night of the murder. A few hours after Winston Mosley was arrested for robbery, he was sitting in an interrogation room across from Detective John Carroll. Among other things, Carroll was curious about the fresh scabs on Mosley's hands, which he claimed he got from working around the house. Doubt it. Carroll said,

[43:31] No. [43:32] You got those cuts from Kitty Genevieve when you were putting the knife in. Oh, shit. Which, like, whoa. Just boom. The room went silent for a few seconds. [43:43] And then... [43:44] with a slight smile forming on his lips, [43:48] He looked at Carol and said, [43:50] Okay, I killed her. Oh, that's chilling. [43:54] What the fuck? Just a father of three? Yep. Yep. [43:59] in that interrogation room cheesing about the fact that he murdered a young woman and this detective is like no you got those cuts when you put the knife in her body and he's like yeah i did kill her you're right [44:11] What the... [44:12] Fuck. [44:13] That's a moment that probably never left Detective Carroll. Can you fucking imagine? Because you're looking at evil. That's like you are looking at pure evil. That's like we always say, like one of those things you see in a movie and you're like, all right. Yeah. And it's like that's what it happened. It really happened. Ew. For the rest of the night, Winston Mosley continued giving his confession to detectives, not sparing any gruesome detail. That's such a weaselly ass name. He ate his dinner. [44:37] He shouldn't have been given a dinner. He told them about how he'd spotted her when she was getting into her car, how he'd followed her home and stabbed her, and how he came back after being run off the first time. [44:47] He even told them about how he'd stolen her wallet and kept the money, throwing the rest of the billfold into the weeds as he was on his way to work the next morning. [44:55] Mosley also claimed that as he was driving home after killing Kitty, he spotted a man sleeping in his car by the side of the road. He approached the car and tapped on the driver's side window with the bloody knife.

[45:07] Startling the driver awake, Mosley said, listen, mister, you shouldn't be sleeping like that. The carbon monoxide builds up or somebody could come along and do something bad to you. [45:16] Jesus Christ. The man thanked him for the warning then drove off. I'm sure. [45:20] That man's probably like, what? Yeah. [45:23] And to tap on the window with a bloody knife to say that you're a psychopath. No, he absolutely is. [45:29] To the detectives, the whole story seemed fucking bizarre. And Mosley was so forthcoming that they wondered whether he was even telling the truth. They were like, is this real? But he had no reason to lie. And he seemed to know too much about the murder to be a false confession. So there was little doubt that Winston Mosley had killed Kitty Genovese. But that wasn't all. After he'd finished confessing to the robberies around Queens and the murder of Kitty Genovese, he also confessed to murdering 24-year-old Annie Mae Johnson a week earlier. [45:57] the details of that one are remarkably similar to those of Kitty's murder. When they asked why he'd done it, the best explanation Winston could come up with was that he gave in to urges to kill and rape. [46:09] Well, put them away. Yeah, forever. Bye. Bye. [46:23] This episode is brought to you by SoFi, the all-in-one finance app where you can bank, borrow, and invest all in one place. [46:30] Let's talk about bank accounts for a second. The average bank savings rate is 0.39% in interest. You're earning pennies on your savings, and it doesn't have to be that way.

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[48:14] Summer is the perfect time to rethink what clothes you're reaching for every day. With the warmer weather, you want lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment that you put them on, and also look effortless. That's where quince comes in. You guys, I love quince. They focus on high-quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It looks like luxury, it feels like luxury, but you don't get that markup. [48:42] It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated, but still easy. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond. I actually was getting ready for the spring recently, so I said, Quince.com, please. And I got a couple of their linen skirts. They are, first of all, so freaking comfortable. They come in the cutest colors. My favorite one that I got is in this yellow color. It just makes me feel like sunshine when I get all dressed. [49:12] Those are a staple in my wardrobe every single time of the year between summer, fall, winter, spring, all of the above. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash morbid for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash morbid for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash morbid. [49:40] When Mosley was done giving his confession, Detective Carroll went to the phone to call prosecutor Phil Chedda to inform him that they'd likely solved two recent murders. Chedda listened to Carroll's story, but after he heard the details of the Johnson murder, he stopped the detectives and explained that Mosley was wrong.

[49:58] He claimed he'd shot Annie Mae Johnson when, in fact, she had been stabbed to death. Oh, so he was just trying to get credit for a murder? Well, when Carol confronted Mosley with the discrepancy, Winston looked unsurprised that in the same flat tone he'd had all night, he simply said, [50:14] I shot her. [50:16] So it's like, what the fuck are you talking about now? [50:19] This is wild. So when the autopsy was initially conducted on Annie Mae Johnson, the coroner had to contend with the fact that she had been badly burned across large parts of her body. [50:30] which obscured some of her injuries. [50:33] After having the body exhumed and x-rayed, the coroner discovered that indeed his original cause of death had been wrong. [50:41] The x-rays clearly showed six .22 caliber bullets in Johnson's body. Holy shit. When he had originally conducted the autopsy, the entrance wounds had been so small that he'd mistaken them for puncture wounds caused by something like an ice pick. Thus, he had listed it as stabbing. Oh. This new revelation proved that not only had Winston Mosley killed Kitty Genovese, he had absolutely killed Annie Mae Johnson. Wow. Wow. [51:08] The fact that they said, no, you were wrong. Like you told them. He just said, no, I shot her. [51:14] Like, he's like, go ahead, figure it out. Wow. Like, what? [51:20] Now, the murder of Kitty Genovese was a tragic event that scarred the neighborhood that happened. Of course. But from an objective position, there was little about it that was like,

[51:30] outrageously like out of the ordinary for like a horrible crime unfortunately you know what i mean like it wasn't it was horrible but it was like a horrible crime and had it not been for the news coverage that followed it likely probably would have been one of those that we found and we're like why don't we know about this you know what i mean like it would have got like totally obscured and other things right um in fact in the week that followed kitty's death the murder made the paper a [52:00] New York Times article that changed the narrative entirely. Published on March 27th, 1964, Gainsbourg's article, 37 Who Saw Murder Didn't Call the Police, ignored most of the facts of Kitty's murder and instead focused on a misunderstanding of the reactions from her neighbors. [52:20] He wrote, for more than half an hour, 38 respectable law-abiding citizens in Queens watched a killer stalk and stab a woman in three separate attacks in Kew Gardens. [52:31] According to him, Kitty's neighbors not only heard her cries for help, but actively ignored them, knowing that she was being violently assaulted. [52:39] He said, if we had been called when he first attacked, the woman might not be dead now. That's he had quoted a police chief as saying that. It seems unlikely that Martin Ginsburg was acting like in bad faith when he wrote the article. Instead, the article was assigned to him by an editor, Abe Rosenthal, who had been fed the misinformation by New York City Police Commissioner Michael Murphy. So this is not like one guy who just made a game of telephone. It's a game of telephone, but it was misinformation that was given. Yeah. And then spewed out. Right.

[53:09] I remember like when you go over it, they're like, it's, yeah, it's, [53:12] not real. Like they're trying to say the bystander effect is not real. Exactly. Now, in reality, no one saw Kitty getting attacked the second time. Right. Because they wouldn't have been able to. She was in the vestibule. At most, people heard her cries for help. And when they went to see what was going on, she had already moved behind the building and couldn't be seen. As for no one calling the police, that was also untrue. Several people called the police that night, but not knowing exactly what was happening. The reports were marked low priority and police didn't respond [53:42] have if they knew she was being actively murdered. Now, regardless of the facts, the story seemed to speak to the people of New York, many of who, like Kitty's parents, were concerned about the changing composition of the neighborhoods and what they thought was rising crime rates. Mm-hmm. [53:58] Journalist Joe Sexton wrote the killing of Kitty Genovese was first a tragedy, then a symbol, then a bit of a durable urban mythology. [54:05] That is to say the story, as the New York Times presented it, confirmed what a lot of people already believed, that crime rates were skyrocketing and it was becoming unsafe to live in these neighborhoods. Yeah. And... [54:19] That all of this stuff resulted in an extreme form of apathy. Right. That they were really making people feel like people are becoming apathetic as a whole. And it prevented them from even doing anything to intervene properly. [54:33] for this poor woman. Right. Now, to the editor, Abe Rosenthal... [54:36] The story had very little to do with Kitty at all and was, in fact, all about the state of American society in the mid 1960s. He wrote in 1999, I was interested only in the manner of her dying.

[54:48] That is the power of the Genovese matter. It talks to us not about her, a subject that was barely of fleeting interest to us, but about ourselves, a subject never out of our minds. [55:00] Oh. [55:02] That's a real thing that was said. I literally, did you just see me like... Ash actively like backed up in her seat. [55:09] Like it just it thrust her backwards. What the fuck? [55:14] I can't imagine... [55:16] he so he's actually speechless so the whole thing was like oh my goodness we're all becoming apathetic this is bad high crime rates nobody's gonna interview and then he's literally like yeah i don't care about that woman that got married let's talk about apathy though and it's like did [55:34] did you choke on the irony of that statement that you're being like fuck we're all getting apathetic this is terrible everybody listen to this who gives a fuck about that girl [55:43] I care about me. It's like, you literally are apathy, my friend. Like, that's insane. You are literally walking apathy down the street. The point, you just... [55:53] how'd you miss it like how can you how can you actually lack that much humanity and also like as a journalist i'm like you wrote that down and read it and then published it and somebody else was like good idea like what hello yeah yikes as author melissa jane hardy put it rosenthal's interest was aroused not by the murder victim but by his fantasy of the reader reading the story which is a perfect way of saying it yeah she's like yeah he didn't care about a murder victim

[56:23] this fantasy in his head about somebody reading this story and being enthralled. Then you should read, then you should write fiction. Yeah. [56:30] Fantasy is perhaps the best way to describe his interpretation of this case. To him, it didn't matter that Kitty Genovese had a family, friends, a girlfriend who loved her. Clearly not. Or that an entire neighborhood had been literally fucking traumatized by her death and would carry with them... [56:46] the burden of inaction, however unfairly it had been put upon them. What mattered to him, the only thing that mattered, was that people maintained their fear and outrage that drove them to pick up [56:58] his articles. [56:59] instead of another paper. [57:01] That is so outlandish. Like, that's unbelievable. And just the lack of ethics, babe. Yeah. That's a crazy one. The lack of ethics, the lack of empathy. Yeah. Hello? Yep. Hello? [57:17] In the weeks that followed, subsequent articles appeared in different newspapers, like, all over the place, addressing the so-called problem of urban apathy. Did they put him on the cover of those? [57:31] theoretical experts in human behavior, such as psychiatrists and sociologists, [57:36] seemed as hard put as anyone else to explain the inaction of witnesses. [57:40] Citing no one in particular, Rosenthal went on to say, [57:48] So he didn't cite anyone as saying that. But he just said everybody said that. Except people had gotten involved. Right. Somebody yelled out their window. Yeah.

[57:56] Many, as soon as they knew what was happening, got called the police. When Robert Moser heard Kitty's cries for help, he shouted at the man he believed was only harassing her. But he got involved when he thought somebody was just harassing her. Yeah. Causing Winston Mosley to briefly flee the scene. For 10 minutes. The only reason Moser didn't go down to see what was happening was that he saw Kitty stand up and begin walking towards the door. And he said he just believed she was all right. Right. Yeah. [58:21] Also, the moment Sophia Farr learned that Kitty was in trouble, she raced down the stairs and held Kitty in her arms, offering her comfort and kindness and like just somebody being there in her final moments of life. That's the thing. There was a lot of humanity. Yeah, like we can't take that away from this. Like the fact of the matter was if there was an action, it was on the part of law enforcement. [58:42] who couldn't be bothered to find out what the fuck was going on until it was too fucking late. Yeah. [58:47] Like that's the reality. It's the truth. It is the truth. But none of that mattered to the people that were saying this, like to Rosenthal. All that mattered to him was that people kept reading what he was saying and he kept building a name for himself. [59:17] of the inaction of the Genovese case, saying, what the devil do you expect in a town, a jungle like this? [59:24] Sir, go elsewhere. Just go away. In a matter of months, this story had been changed. They had taken a tragic story of a brutal murder in Queens and made it into an alarmist statement of the decline of urban society. And she got totally lost. Which he didn't give a shit about. Yeah. In his autobiography, Rosenthal wrote of Kitty, her name once known only to her family and the people she served at the bar,

[59:54] who have heard it. [59:56] I'm going to make a broad statement, but I feel pretty confident about it. Does he hate women? [1:00:01] i feel like he hates women i'm just getting woman hater yeah it's not great broad statement but feels appropriate yeah you motherfucker yeah like what [1:00:12] Can you imagine writing that about any person who has lived? Yeah. Like, that doesn't suck. [1:00:19] But a murder victim who was in their mid-20s when they were brutally stabbed and sexually assaulted? [1:00:27] Nobody would have known her name. Nobody would have known your fucking name if you didn't insert your dumb self into this. Well, and that's, it's like, this all just fit their worldview. Man, oh man. It didn't matter if it was true or not. This fit the worldview that they had of what was going on. And so people, they just accepted it. And anyone else who had that worldview also accepted this as like, yep, confirmation of what I've been saying. That's just a fucking crazy thing to write down. They simply just accepted what they heard in passing. Life in the city had become so hard and so bad that people were insane. [1:00:56] Even afraid, too afraid to intervene to save the life of a young woman being attacked in front of them on the street. That was the message. For decades, that was the story of Kitty Genovese. Not one of a young woman... [1:01:09] cut down in the prime of her fucking life, but one of urban apathy and cowardice. And it would remain that way until someone... [1:01:20] finally decided to ask some more probing questions and say, [1:01:24] Wait a minute. How could this have possibly happened? Now, following his arrest and arraignment, Winston Mosley was briefly held in a psychiatric hospital where he was evaluated and deemed to be sane. Wow, that's even scarier. Worse. In June 1964, Mosley went on trial for the murder of Kitty Genovese, where he pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. I was like, you were just literally deemed sane. By that point, he had been charged with Annie Mae Johnson's murder the month before Kitty's death and the murder of 15-year-old Barbara Kralik in Queens the previous July.

[1:01:54] This guy is a crazy person, which we are. I want to go back and try to look further into those two cases. So we'll touch upon that again. As evidence of his insanity, Mosley's lawyer cited his client's willingness to confess to the crimes. [1:02:08] Despite the lack of evidence that conclusively tied him to the murder. It's a wild, weird thing to do, but it's not insane. It's not insane. Regardless of his explanation and admittedly bizarre behavior, less than a week after the trial began, he was found guilty of murder and sentenced to death. [1:02:23] But that was eventually commuted to life in prison. Four years later, he broke away from a prison guard in Buffalo, New York, and escaped from jail briefly before being recaptured and returned to the Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora, New York. In the years that followed, he appealed his case and repeatedly petitioned for parole, but was denied each time. During his final hearing for parole in 2015, the parole board declined his petition, writing, [1:02:53] much insight. And for that reason, they believed he was not fit for release. That many years later, they still said, you're not showing any remorse. He was 80 years old and still not showing remorse. That's next level. The following year, he died of natural causes at age 81. Rest in distress. Winston Mosley's death probably would have gone unnoticed had it not coincided with the release of The Witness, a documentary by filmmaker James Solomon and Kitty's brother Bill. Oh, okay. After [1:03:23] life and tragic death be exploited for the sake of a cynical social critique, like brought up in psychology classes. Yeah. You know, Bill Genovese decided it was time to correct the record once and for all. He said there was a lot of things we discovered of the 11 years of research that he and Solomon had done for the film, he said. But basically, the most fundamental thing was that the 38 eyewitness story and three attacks was not true.

[1:03:47] Which is wild. That's got to just shatter your fucking brain, especially as somebody related to the case. Well, in this poor family, her poor family and friends and Marianne were told that 38 of her neighbors watched this happen and didn't give a shit about her. Like, that would have been... [1:04:04] It's maddening. I can't imagine that. And that also is going to change your view on society and the way that you interact with society. It probably shaped a lot of it. Now, most important to Genovese was learning that contrary to popular belief, his sister hadn't been callously ignored that night. And in fact, there was someone with her in the final moments of her life. And it's like that could have provided that family so much comfort had they known that. And he said that Bill said that he said that was enormous. It was such a relief. Of course it was. [1:04:30] About Sophia Farrar's actions that night. He said, my only regret is that my parents were not able to understand that that was the case. They would have been, I'm sure, somewhat relieved to have known that somebody was there. And not only somebody, it was a friend of hers. Of course they would have been relieved by that. In the course of their research, Solomon and Genovese found many people who continued to carry not only the trauma of that night, but also the memory of his sister. [1:04:55] We're still telling them like, [1:04:57] She was this amazing person, and that's not what is being told here. In telling their story and in celebrating the life of his sister, Bill Genevieve started a larger conversation that ultimately questioned this myth of urban apathy and corrected the record when it came to the life and death of Kitty Genevieve. As for Marianne, whose life was insane.

[1:05:17] She irreparably altered that night. Like I said. She eventually managed to heal a little bit from the trauma of her loss and built a life for herself working as a statistical analyst. Wow, good for her. In 1997, she retired with her partner in Rutland, Vermont, but she carried Kitty's memory with her until her death in April 2024. Oh, just happened. I'm glad she lived such a long life. In 2000. Yeah. In 2004, Marianne spoke to the press for the first time about her relationship with Kitty, during which the interviewer asked if Kitty hadn't died that [1:05:47] still be together. [1:05:48] And she said, I think Kitty would probably own a bar and I think she would be happy. [1:05:52] And then she paused for a second and added... [1:05:55] We both would. [1:05:56] I was about to cry. No, I get it. Then she paused for a second and said... [1:06:00] we would both be. Of course, they'd be happy. Which just like... [1:06:03] Yeah. [1:06:04] For her to have to like sit there and think about like what life could be with the person you love so much and taken from you like that. They have their whole lives ahead of them. Those are the questions that it's like. [1:06:16] Is that appropriate to ask? Yeah, it's like, and I can see, like, both sides of that coin. I know, I know. [1:06:22] I don't know. I don't know if it is. [1:06:25] It's like if she had her partner, that's really kind of disrespectful. Well, that's the other thing. Yeah, that's the thing. And it's also she was single. Like, absolutely. You know what I mean? Like, to be like, do you think you would still be together? But even that is like, it's kind of disrespectful to her to put her in that position. She also is diving into something that would be so hard to access, which is like, hey, you.

[1:06:49] go back and pull out all your hopes and dreams for your life together. That you had to put down, down, down, down, down. You had to put to the side. Yeah. That was torn away from you. That you literally had to bury. And tell me, would you still be together? Like, that's a lot for her to have to access in that moment. I understand. I understand the question itself. [1:07:08] I don't know. That's got to have the impact. I'm not saying the person who asked it was trying to be a dick. But I just, that question, I'm like, ooh, that hurt my head. [1:07:18] Heart... [1:07:19] And I just don't think... [1:07:22] I don't know. It just doesn't feel like something I need to... I don't need to know that. It's not my business. It's her... [1:07:27] It's her feeling. I just think that sometimes people can be a lot more tactful with the way they interview. For sure. And that's a great example of it. I don't think the intent was bad, but I'm just like, maybe scratch that one. [1:07:40] not the bad thing. It's just the... [1:07:42] Outcome. The execution of it is not great. And I just feel like she, I just didn't, I don't know. That's not, that's not for us. If she wanted to access that, then she, she can access that. Exactly. I don't know. I don't want to like force someone to access that kind of pain. A little exploitative. You know, but. [1:07:59] I think Kitty Genovese sounded like the coolest fucking lady. [1:08:04] ever I wanted to hang I would hang with her absolutely second the whole time I was reading this and stuff about her I was like [1:08:12] damn. Like what a cool... Sounds like a great girl. What a cool girl. And then Marianne sounds like such a badass and I feel like hanging in their apartment would be so cool. I know. With like her painting and her fucking... Kitty reading and talking astrology. Yeah just talking astrology. They would have been... Doing all kinds of cool shit. We would have been like...

[1:08:32] We would have been tight, I feel like. They just sounded... Had we crossed paths back then. They just sounded like... They were... She was taken away from... [1:08:41] from a lot of people and people who didn't even know her yet she's taken away from potential friends it's that she probably would have had everywhere i'm so happy like you said in the middle of that that they had that little bubble for even the amount of time that they did like i'm that's yeah that's a such a special connection and i'm glad that her brother [1:08:59] Set the record straight. Like Solomon was able to... [1:09:03] They were able to like dive in and be like, no, she wasn't callously ignored because it's an awful thing to think about for your loved one. Yeah. Well, I think that her parents thought that she was just callously ignored as she was brutally killed and that no one was with her when she died. When in reality, Sophia Farrar was holding her and hope and whispering to her to make sure she knew she was with her. [1:09:26] That's a good fucking person right there. I feel like sometimes we always look... [1:09:30] A lot of people want to look for the worst. For the hole in the donut. The hole in the donut. I tell my kids that all the time. Don't look for the hole. It is my nannyism. My grandmother. [1:09:39] She would always say, don't stop looking for the hole in the donut. There's a whole bunch of donut around that hole and you're not even looking at it. I love that. And I tell the kids that all the time when they're being negative. I'm going to take that when I have kids. And it's like... [1:09:51] Sometimes people are great. [1:09:53] yeah sometimes that is true and sometimes human interactions are great sometimes people are fucking terrible but sometimes there's people will surprise you well the sad thing is it's like there are so many instances of humans being terrible to each other yeah when there is an instance of connection let's expose that for what it is and let's let's like hold that deer not try to flip it on its head exactly and it sounds like you know people did did act it wasn't in action it was just

[1:10:23] fucking Winston Mosley can go fuck himself 100% rest in distress bitch yeah fuck you because the fact that he came back go fuck the fact that he was scared off and then came back is really scary it's also just like that's a fucking predator yeah [1:10:39] What's your fun fact? So most people... [1:10:42] are petting cats the wrong way. How am I supposed to pet my cat? Apparently research shows that they will tolerate it for food and attention. Like they're just dealing with it. But the safest spots to do it are under their chin. [1:10:55] Oh, their cheeks. [1:10:56] in the base of their ears. [1:10:58] the worst, their belly and the base of their tail. [1:11:02] Oh, that makes sense. None of my cats, except Remy, like being pet on the belly. Yeah. And I always do behind their ears. There you go. Oh, yeah. I love knowing that. Yeah. So get them under the chin and the cheeks. The base of their tail makes so much sense because once you start going to a cat's tail, it's like the most sensitive part of their body. That makes sense. Yeah. [1:11:20] So yeah. Thanks for that. Pet your cat accordingly. Pet your cat correct. Come correct. Well, with that, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you try to like turn things into something that they're not when they actually were quite all right. Yeah, it's pretty wild. Yeah, it's a weird fucking thing to do. Gives weird vibes. It does.

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